Can anyone explain how this works under Building Regs - replacement windows(with diagram)

[AuntieBacterial]

Hoping someone understands the building regs better than me as they relate to double glazing.

Background is that we had our single glazed windows replaced in 2003 with standard PVC units. Design was the same as the windows replaced. Contractor claimed to be FENSA registered - but failed to produce paperwork and nothing shows up in FENSAs records. Asked council’s advice over the years that have passed and they recommended going down a regularisation route - which I am now attempting to do.

Building inspector showed up today and raised that the opening dimension requirements of our windows do not satisfy the requirement to have an escape window in each bedroom on the first floor. Vertical clearance of open window should apparently be 45 cm min and ours are 43 cm

Looking at my neighbours house, and comparing equivalent windows for our identical pair of semi detached houses they would also not meet the requirement. They don’t have an escape window at all as only the upper window pane opens and that is well above 110cm from the floor- which is too high to be an escape window. See diagram.

So i am wondering if the inspector got it wrong, or if next door have just got away with it. Their windows were installed 2 years ago and they sold the house in March this year and produced a FENSA cert for the windows according to my new neighbour.

If my replacement double glazed windows installed 20 years ago MUST have an escape window in every first floor bedroom, and the window MUST meet the dimensional specifications in building regs, how can it be that the windows in a house with the same layout next door, which were only fitted 2 years ago, don’t seem to be required to have an escape window at all.

Any ideas or advice?

Why have you decided to go for building regs now? The windows are 20 years old and if selling the house it shouldn’t be an issue

The advice we got from the council was that this would be an issue should we sell - if the windows were installed after 2002, building regs apply. And then because we had asked the council about it, we were stuck.

We bought our first house in 2013. No mention of Fensa on any paperwork. When selling in 2016 the solicitors (same we had used previously) asked us to provide the Fensa certificate from 2009.
We didn't even know they had ever been replaced. And why had it not been a thing when we bought the place?!
We simply said we didn't have it and the sale when through anyway. But in this instance I'm not sure if ours had online records.
In your case its been over 20 years so could simply be up to potential buyers whether they want windows that may be 2cm too small, if they want to dig that deep.

Thanks Badgers.

It’s a bit of a gamble and I would rather be sure it’s not going to be an issue.

I could understand truly new windows - in a new extension for example - needing to be designed to comply with the building regs applicable at the time. It just seems to make no sense that the design of a replacement window would also have to comply with egress requirements that weren’t applicable when the house was built.

I'd guess that a fensa certificate for replacement windows probably wouldn't consider escape routes. They'd be concerned with the windows meeting insulation and security regs, not the design of your house (you could have a protected escape route inside).

I wouldn't bat an eyelid about buying a house without paperwork for bog standard uPVC windows that are two decades old.

If you approach the council and ask them to certify that the windows meet regulations, then of course they will have to assess whether they meet the regulations. Your neighbours having got away with windows that don't comply isn't really relevant.

I'm not quite sure what you mean about being "stuck" because you asked the council for advice. They surely won't take any enforcement action over twenty year old noncompliant windows!

If I were you I'd give up on getting certification for the windows and if a buyer asks then just say the windows were installed in 2003 and there isn't any paperwork available. The worst case scenario there is that the buyer is concerned the windows may be substandard in some vague way and makes some allowance in their offer for replacing them. The alternative would seem to be that you replace them yourself now, but you're vanishingly unlikely to recoup that cost in the selling price.

Thanks.

I think that’s where I am not understanding what the issue is. House deign is unchanged and met building regs requirements at the time it was built.

Old inefficient windows have just been replaced with more efficient versions of the same design. So why should my house need to be reassessed and made to retrospectively comply with regulations applicable to new builds.

By ‘stuck’ I mean the council now know there’s no FENSA cert. I also doubt they would take action, but if we sell I wouldn’t want to chance it holding up a sale.

I've just exchanged contracts on my house, I only had a certificate for one window/door and it wasn't a problem, the property I'm buying didn't have any and I'm not concerned. It came up on the survey, it always will because it's one of the things they check for.

I think it is more of an issue with a new build where there are still warranties associated with the windows.

You are overthinking this, I did the same when I was putting my house on the market.

Thanks for the advice.

I am still pretty curious about whether the inspector was right though.

If my replacement double glazed windows installed 20 years ago MUST have an escape window in every first floor bedroom, and the window MUST meet the dimensional specifications in building regs, how can it be that the windows in a house with the same layout next door, which were only fitted 2 years ago, don’t seem to be required to have an escape window at all. Both houses are identical and neither have been extended since they were built in the 90s.

Your neighbour's windows will presumably have been installed by a non fensa registered installer and so haven't been registered with the LA under building regs.

I can see from our LA website that the neighbours windows have been registered by a FENSA contractor.

so either their FENSA contractor fitted non-compliant windows or the building inspector was not correctly applying the regulation when he raised the requirement for escape windows for us.

Buildings regs do change over time. It is possibly ndn or even yours conformed at the time of fitting but may not now. The inspector will be looking at the latest ones.

For building reg purposes it doesn't matter how old the windows are only the regulations in place at the time of assessment. If I only needed to stick to regulations in place when my house was built it would be a death trap but anything has to be judged on current standards

When we bought our house it had windows that had been installed at various different times, the most recently 20 years previously, and none had a FENSA certificate. It wasn't an issue. After that period of time, a certificate doesn't really mean a great deal. If they haven't already fallen out or failed spectacularly then you know that there wasn't an issue with the installation. We just factored in that we'd probably need to replace them at some point as 20 year old windows won't be as efficient as new ones.

Agree, where you have altered the structure of your house. But when building regs change every house doesn’t have to be modified to comply with the change. Only new builds or structural changes to existing houses would need to comply.

we have not made any structural changes, the existing windows were just replaced like-for-like in 2003. Just the same as our neighbours did in 2021.

Building regs Part L were updated in June 2022, so since your neighbours installed their windows. It might well be that the regs for opening sizes have changed since 2021.

If you’ve started this because you’re selling, tell the solicitor that you have no certification for them and offer to take out an indemnity policy to reassure your buyers. Ours cost £9.

Building regulations changes. I had my windows replaced about 7-8 years ago. It has a top opener on one side and no full height opening. We built an extension last year and apparently I can’t have a top opener because the height of the window in the extension is not tall enough. The height of the extension window is the same as the other bedrooms. The old replacement was done by a FENSA registered installer and I have the certificate. The extension was signed off by building control. All I can conclude from this is the regulation changed between the window replacement and the extension.

I doubt your 20year old windows will meet regulations now. But why would any buyer worry? It is 20 years old!

Lots of misinformation on here.

If the windows that were replaced were not egress windows, the replacements do not need to be either.

Thanks! That was my thinking.

Buildings regs definitely do change. We have just had the windows put in our loft conversion and discussed options with the building inspector a couple of weeks ago, and they are different to a couple of years ago.

I REALLY wouldn’t bother getting sign off for windows that are so old. As a buyer I wouldn’t be worried in this situation.

Window regs changed at least as recently as last summer IIRC, amongst other things to make having vents compulsory. We were having some in just before the regs changed, but we wanted vents anyway so didn't need to rush.
If the structure of an old house means something can't be done, the inspectors are sensible about things IME.
I've just been looking at Building regs for a conservatory floor- although the conservatory itself will be built from scratch, the regs are less strict for it than if it was going on a new-build house- there are 2 sets of regs- one lot for a new build, and another lot for an addtion to an existing build.🤔Presumably because with older builds the existing foundations adjoining may not allow for the same depth of insulation as for a new build? I don't know. It's all very complicated.
On the whole, the regs are there to make things safer so I don't have a problem with sticking to them. However, the ones for energy efficiency due to come in in a couple of years look a bit impractical to me for older houses. We've just reslated the roof and done some reroofing, and the current regs were fine, we did everthing as per, but the incoming ones would have been a problem as even our fairly butch roof timbers wouold not be thick enough for all the insulation they'll be requiring.

You only have to meet current building regs when you replace something. Yours were replaced, and should have met the building regs at that time - was the inspector looking at the requirements for 2003? I bet he was looking at the requirements for today.
My windows are like your neighbours and are not up to current code. I think either your neighbours installer lied about them being compliant or they do actually open at the bottom? Because I bought my house almost two years ago and it was flagged by my surveyor as they don't open at the bottom.
As for the council knowing, that only means you won't be able to get indemnity insurance I think. But indemnity insurance is hardly worth the paper it's written on.
And you are incorrect @Thereoughttobeclowns. Replacement glazing must comply to current building regs, regardless of the type of window that was there before. However I think there's an issue here that the OPs window opening isn't wide enough. Would she be required to do the necessary building work to actually widen the opening by the 2cm to meet the code if she were to replace them? I don't know.
But OP, I certainly wouldn't worry about windows 20 years old. I'm sure there are other things in your house that do not meet code. I think your neighbour might have an issue if a surveyor picked up that their FENSA certificate is not valid if the window opening is more than 110cm from the floor. But that's their problem.

mondaytosunday I am not incorrect.

My point was about egress. If the window was an egress window before, it would need to be an egress window when replaced. I aware the glazing has to meet the U value, but I was talking about the requirement for egress.

And if you regularise works, you only need to comply with the regulations from the time.

The regulations changed in June 2022 when there was an uplift to Part L. From this point onwards, replacement glazing should have background ventilation (unless the requirement can be proven through other ventilation), but there is still no requirement to provide egress through a replacement window if it didn’t comply prior.

Building regs have to be applied to the current standards, even if the windows were fitted years ago. They don't do retrospective building regs.

If you've missed getting the FENSA cert then you need to bring the windows up to current day specs.

I expect the neighbours with similar windows have either building control certificates or FENSA certificates for the current windows.