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Original poster

Underpinning with no documentation

23 replies

UnderpinningIssue · 13/05/2023 01:36

We are very far into a house purchase. Plan was to exchange next week. I thought we were just sorting out a few last queries. I do have quite a lot going on and may have slightly dropped the ball on this and now I don’t know what to do.

It turns out the house had underpinning work
due to subsistence 15 years ago. The problem was due to a leaking drain which has been replaced and the work was carried out through insurance, however the vendors don’t have any documentation or certificate of structural adequacy. They say they have had no issues in 15 years. The insurance company have it noted on file but it’s too long ago for them to keep fuller records. They say they’ve had no difficulty obtaining insurance.

The vendors do have the building regs documentation from the ground floor extension 19 years ago and the loft conversion 10 years ago.

I’ve read around a bit and seen that up to 20% of houses in Britain may have had some kind of issues like this and this may well increase with climate change. I know in London where they build on clay it’s super common. I understand the theory that the fact it’s been underpinned should mean it’s much more secure and a better bet than one next door that hasn’t been. But I also see that it makes your house hard to sell, that the main insurers won’t insure and lots of advice to run a mile. Our Homebuyers report didn’t pick up any issues that the surveyor felt should put us off.

I feel like it’s going to be a pain in the arse to sell and we’re leaving ourselves really vulnerable.

I’ve got various specialist insurers giving us a call tomorrow. It seems from online that we should be able to get insurance but it feels worrying that the big guys all say no.

What should we do? I’ve asked if they can provide whatever they have from
the insurance company and let us know who it is so we can talk to them, I’ve asked if we can double check there are no council records.

If we can find reasonable insurance do we go for it? And ask for a reduction given the concerns over resale? Or do we pull out and run? Is it super shitty to ask for a reduction so late in the game or is it the least we can do? I don’t know if they’d go for it. They played fairly hardball when we were putting offer in and they also seem
to have an equity release mortgage.

We can pull out. We’ll lose our buyer I think, they’ve already completed on their sale and have been chomping at the bit to get in but I think our house will sell again. We have got DS into the local school of the new house but can work around it.

Thoughts… advice? My DH is tearing his hair out.

OP posts:

C4tastrophe · 13/05/2023 07:16

Sounds like a localised issue and only where the drain leaked was underpinned?
It should be fine. Get the documents from the insurer for future reference. They still insure the property now?

drpet49 · 13/05/2023 07:27

I would pull out.

wildfirewonder · 13/05/2023 07:28

I would be very wary about this.

What level of survey have you had so far? I would ask for the vendor to fund a specialist survey using a surveyor of your choice.

Pimms0clock · 13/05/2023 07:57

Two questions;

have you spoken to the current insurer and are they happy to transfer the policy across to you and
how long are you planning to live there?

I have been through a very similar experience. We bought, it was stressful at the time getting things sorted with insurers (mortgage company didn’t have any concerns) but have had no problems since. If you want to know more about what we did, please PM me.

Original poster

UnderpinningIssue · 13/05/2023 18:23

Thank you so much for replies.

So far we have only had the homebuyers report rather than a structural survey. I was thinking of asking them to fund one. I just can’t quite decide what order I want to ask things in.

I have asked for the details of the current insurer but haven’t yet been provided with them.

We would have planned to stay at least 20 years but of course life can be unlredictable. Reselling it sounds concerning.

OP posts:

Remmy123 · 13/05/2023 19:05

If it was 15 years ago and it's still standing I can't see the issue

get a structural engineer to come and check it's sound

mixedrecycling · 13/05/2023 19:15

I was in this situation - underpinning about 20 years ago, but no documentation - also done through insurance but the records were no longer available. I got a structural survey done, which raised no issues. I have had no difficulty getting insurance, and no increased premiums. I suspect it is fairly common in this part of London.

A slight worry at the time, but given I haven't had any difficulty with insurance it isn't a worry any longer.

mixedrecycling · 13/05/2023 19:16

Again, planning to stay long term, so any slight impact on resale value is more than covered by it being a good deal and perfect for us.

wildfirewonder · 13/05/2023 22:53

So far we have only had the homebuyers report rather than a structural survey. You absolutely need a survey and the surveyor should be instructed to investigate the subsidence issue.

friendlycat · 13/05/2023 23:02

I would book a structural survey before proceeding. You would need to book and pay for this yourself and decide from there whether you are happy to proceed with the purchase.

ChippyPrincess · 13/05/2023 23:08

Were the current vendors in residence 15 years ago when it was underpinned? Your post makes it sound as if they were.

I've been though a subsidence claim and it was THE most stressful thing. Sorry if you've been through that, there is NO WAY you would not carefully gather all the paperwork so you had proof of what had been done and that it was properly signed off. Especially as it was actually underpinned - which insurers don't tend to do nowadays unless they have to. It was a serious and sizeable claim.

Makes me wonder if they're hiding something to be honest.

firsttimemumggg · 13/05/2023 23:19

How did you find out?

firsttimemumggg · 14/05/2023 00:51

I'm not sure what the issue is. The current insurance company will need to insure you.

SpacePotato · 14/05/2023 00:56

Our house had been underpinned 20 years before we bought it.

The insurers didn't care and it didn't cost any extra.

Original poster

UnderpinningIssue · 14/05/2023 10:10

We found out on the solicitor forms which came through after our survey, so they did disclose it but only upfront.

@ChippyPrincess they were living there at the time. And they do have the building regs for the extension they did in 2004 and the loft conversion they did in 2008 which make me suspicious about why they don’t have this paperwork.

I think we are going to say we need an urgent structural survey, they need to come back with the insurer details we asked for last week and we need to speak with the insurer ourselves. If that’s all OK we are happy to
proceed at a discount given concerns about resale value - I already felt we were paying top end and the location made resale slightly trickier - gorgeous part of town but a bit too near a busy bit and slightly poky busy street with tricky visitor parking (but has a driveway).

If they won’t agree to all that then we will pull out, lose our buyer and start selling/looking again once baby is out of hospital in a few weeks.

Sound reasonable?

OP posts:

ChippyPrincess · 14/05/2023 21:23

I think you're being wise. I wouldn't not touch a house which had been underpinned, but I would want to know exactly what had happened, see drawings of what exactly had been done to correct it and confirmation that the work had been signed off by the insurer. They might decline to pay out again if you don't have the latter.
Best case scenario is it won't ever move again but even then you'll get questions from buyers when you come to sell so the house is always going to be slightly devalued / harder to sell.

frankgu · 15/05/2023 07:41

It's weird as it going to become more of a thing particularly in London but it puts people off. The lack of paperwork is a bit of a red flag.

TizerorFizz · 15/05/2023 09:01

@ChippyPrincess You obviously do not know anything about underpinning! It’s far better if it’s been done. A house that has an issue whilst you are in it is the issue! That’s the stressful part.

@UnderpinningIssue
You can ask an independent structural engineer to visit. Local ones are best as they know what happens with the ground locally. You really should have had this first time around. The vendors are obviously stupid too. Of course they had details of this work! They will have been involved with their own claim!

Having said that, a leaking drain, maybe damaged with the building work, is no big deal for the house overall. Just get it looked at for cracks (you could almost do this yourself!) if you are worried about further subsidence. Cannot see why there would be. A structural engineer will find you peace of mind.

ChippyPrincess · 15/05/2023 09:18

@TizerorFizz - well it turned out that my house had been partially underpinned at some point in its past. This was not disclosed to me by the vendors when I bought but I later found out that they did know.
The problems we have had have been largely the non-underpinned areas moving slightly vs the underpinned areas which have remained rock solid - causing cracking at the juncture.
This is why I said "I would want to know exactly what had happened, see drawings of what exactly had been done to correct it and confirmation that the work had been signed off by the insurer. They might decline to pay out again if you don't have the latter". Bitter experience speaks!

C4tastrophe · 15/05/2023 09:25

@ChippyPrincess good point.

Tinylittlemouse · 01/05/2024 09:12

Hi, I know this is an old thread but looking for some advice in a similar situation, due to complete next week and then found out the house was underpinned 22 years ago before building an extension, have been told it was a belt and braces reason. The seller has 1 document a certification of satisfactory guarantee from the people who carried out the work where it states what work was carried out and that is all.
i have a mortgage offer in place already, I have had a level 2 survey and in person mortgage valuation and none of which have highlighted any problems. From any of your experience do you think it’s likely the mortgage lender will withdraw their offer? Thanks! Very stressed 😫

TizerorFizz · 01/05/2024 14:17

@Tinylittlemouse Essentially a property without underpinning, but with faults, or potential for faults, is the bigger risk! A house which has been repaired is not a risk of anywhere near the same magnitude. The risk has been addressed. These properties are mortgageable. You might need a surveyors report to prove it. Usually vendors have bills from the work and the original documents about the underpinning. Personally I’d rather it was done and not left to me to have the problems!

Underpinning is simply putting concrete under the foundations to stabilize them. Usually to a greater depth than existing foundations to protect the house from any shifts in ground conditions. The house effectively sits on new foundations but they could be extensive.

When looking at a house afterwards, you should see no cracks that are new. All should be repaired. Windows and doorframes should be true and no gaps that are obvious. You can easily walk round and check this.

wildfirewonder · 01/05/2024 14:55

Tinylittlemouse · 01/05/2024 09:12

You might be better with your own thread, but you need a surveyor's report and you should proceed carefully. Do not be rushed and take advice from both a surveyor and your solicitor.

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