Section 21 Notices….

[CuriouslyDifferent]

Saw on the bbc today that a landlord has had to fight the tenant for two years to get their property back.

Obviously an extreme case - but surely all this is going to do is discourage potential landlords from renting out a property.

When renting I always knew that one day I’d be asked to leave and yep it happened and agreed when and sorted out a new pad.

i do understand that buying is not always an option for many reasons and some people will always rent, as i always have.

But surely a landlord has a right to decide they no longer wish to rent out a property and possibly put it on the market empty.

And I know there are abuses which I’ve never suffered - a complaint causing a s31 isn’t fair - and if it goes on the market afterwards in same state for a price increase is an abuse. In my opinion.

But surely the sort of hate we are seeing against landlords who actually fill a very necessary need - shouldn’t have to go through anything more than a few months whilst a tenant moves on. It’s ultimately going to discourage a section of landlords.

I know myself, when I discuss investment options, I’d steer very clear of property as an investment. It’s potentially just to much grief.

That's not what PP said. Rather, there's no point in dragging out the process, 'just because', unless you want to be housed by the council.
Having moved several times in the last few years it's always a risk with renting. And if you continue to be a private tenant a CCJ isn't going to make things anything easier for you in the future.

This is also why charging 'below market' rent doesn't always help the tenant. They get used to it and can't find anywhere else if/when you sell up.

@Twiglets1 x-posted!

Tenants can't always find alternative private rented accommodation within two months though. Which means they'll have no choice but to go beyond that period before moving out.

Tenants need much more protection in the UK, and it’s coming. In the future tenants will have the same protections like Germany and Switzerland.
If Landlords don’t like it then they need to find another business.

That’s not what people do though , no one wants to go to court, but you obviously can’t move until you find somewhere else

More social housing

Rent caps in private housing

S21 needs to be overhauled

More social housing

Needs to be easier for the LL to get their property back in the case of bad tenants

Needs to be a register of LL where you can report unlawful/dangerous/negligent LLs

More social housing

Did I mention more social housing?

Unless your churning your tennants or your new yo btl, there's no need to charge market rate. 18 years into my mortgage and 15 years with the same tennants the rent 26 miles from Central London is £875 for a 3 bed end terrace. I simply don't need to charge market rate. More tax too. You bet your life it would never ever ho back on the rental market at that rate. But that's a few 3 yearly or so 5% increases. Tell me, do you think it'd fair to increase the rent 5% every year when my costs haven't gone up that much? I'm simply don't need to. That works for all of us. I would never rent it out for less than £1100 if they left. Loosing £200 pcm costs less than vacant periods, redecoration and costs of setting up new tenants. It's not purely from undieing kindness. For the going rent I need to keep it pristine and market ready.

That's not what sensible people do I imagine.

But it is what some posters routinely recommend on Mumsnet - that's my point. It's bad advice.

I fully appreciate that you can't move until you find somewhere else, but people shouldn't be encouraged to dig their heels in unnecessarily just because they can.

You would be insane to enter btl now unless you make it your profession with multiple properties. When my tennants go im out. I wanted a capital gain and its done that

As above - I accept that some people need longer than 2 months, in an unavoidable situation I would also stay beyond 2 months rather than be homeless. But tenants looking for private property should be focussing all their energy on looking for somewhere new once issued with the section 21, not listening to people on Mumsnet saying Don't even think about leaving until the LL issues an eviction notice.
That's just stressful for all parties and the fear of too many tenants doing this is affecting people wanting to become LLs or remain as LLs which doesn't help the shortage of rental accommodation.

They're all the benevolent types on Mumsnet it seems 😂

I'm a housing solicitor and 90% of my clients have to stay to the bitter end because they're already in receipt of housing benefits and or in social housing already and the council / local authority won't help them at any point until the bailiffs are in because they will have been found intentionally homeless if they do.

For the other 10% in private rented homes but have their rent paid by housing benefits, they also qualify for legal aid and I will go through the paperwork and any discrepancies with the tenancy agreement/ section 21 notice and I'll get my clients more time in the property to find private rentals.

It's my job to get them more time. 9/10 the landlord hasn't served the notice properly or protected the deposit appropriately and the case will get kicked out by the judge to start over. 9/10 the landlords will offer to wipe the rent arrears just to get my clients out of their house. It might not seem fair but that's the law. You need to do things properly first time.

That's not including the amount of money owed by the landlords to my clients for illegally evicting them which happens more often than I care to admit. I've had a client call me at 3am in the morning because her landlord was using a circular saw to get through the door and the police said it was a civil matter. He actually went to prison for that in the end.

Sadly the amount of people in rent arrears has shot up and these are the people who can't afford to rent privately and therefore can't afford to be found intentionally homeless because they need the help to rent through a local authority. I can now refer to food banks and I'd say on average I refer 20-30 people a week to various food banks because they aren't paying their rent, they aren't heating their homes, they aren't eating.

My job is only going to get harder because my firm is the only place in the north west that does legal aid housing, we now cover 9 different courts and it's our job to help our clients get more time.

Erm they're already doing that. That's why so many are selling up, increasing the shortage of rental properties.

To be fair, I'm in the NW and have had good LL's. No rent raises while I lived there, repairs done on time, etc. One even changed a lightbulb for me.
However I have also had completely terrible ones!

In London they were all uniformly shitty and expensive. Maybe because they were all part of a foreign buyers' property portfolio.

Bear in mind that 'market rent' is what a place would go for on the rental market, but that discounts the tenants' history. If a tenant is reliable, pays on time and takes care of the place they are worth a lot. Especially as a churn of tenants cost money with void periods, etc.

If we ever move and let out our family home (we'd have to be close to mortgage free) we certainly won't be charging the 'full' market rent. 75% will do...

it's not because we're so kind, it's because we'd also be relying on the tenants' goodwill to take care of the place!

Just like to say thanks everyone for having a discussion to my question, which didn’t degenerate into hate on either side.

There’s no easy answers it seems.

Social housing means diverting tax from elsewhere.

Tightening of the rules where people can be asked to leave, so that they have better protections seems sensible, against the more poor landlords who are essentially reacting against complaints or want silly increases.

Nice to see my experience of a very hands off, and below market rate landlord wasn’t an isolated incident - and similarly I gave them a decade of perfect tenant who always paid, didn’t fuss, didn’t demand every little thing had to be ‘fixed.’

I do worry more legislation is going to put off the accidental and decent landlords like the one I had. yes they could look into a business elsewhere, but they didn’t operate it as a business, and if they did, it would have cost more, and I’d probably have given them some headaches.

Cost of living is making life difficult. I’m thankfull I’m quite insulated from it, but in no way in the current climate would I consider entering the letting business, something my partner comes up with as a solution to a challenge we have next year with her property, and I have to say, I actively discourage, given the pitfalls.

once again, thanks everyone.

The end of S21 notices is simply the end of "no fault" eviction notices, where a landlord can evict for any reason or none - in essence, they can make a family homeless on a whim.

The 17 reasons that a landlord can use to evict under section 8 will still be open to the landlord
https://www.bradysolicitors.com/brady-blog/grounds-of-possession/

It won't be impossible to evict, but landlords won't be able to evict because the tenant asked for repairs, got pregnant, or looked at them funny.

@IndiaPaleAle Thank you for the work you do.

My section 21 will arrive through my letterbox tomorrow. I'm on benefits due to being a full time carer to my disabled child.
I will have no choice but to sit and wait for the bailiffs to turn up in a few weeks, because the council won't house me until it goes that far.
I'm going to end up with a CCj against my name. I've been a good tenant and kept the house in great condition. My rent has always been paid on time and I've never been in arrears since I moved in 12 years ago.
Unfortunately the LL needs to sell due to his own personal reasons.
I have no idea where I'll end up, and I'm so anxious about my child, as he hates change.
He's only known this house and will not understand why we are moving.
I'm going to have to go along with what the council tell me to do because I will not be accepted by any LL on benefits in my area.
I also can't afford the rent increases.
I understand that it will put more stress on my LL having to go through the courts but I can't afford to make myself and my child intentionally homeless

In your situation it makes sense to do what you are doing.

I hope it works out for you but sounds stressful.

The problem with more legislation is that it just makes more landlords likely to sell up - good for the housing market (unless a real 'slumlord' starts hoovering them all up) but bad for people that need to rent.
Not garnering sympathy for landlords at all, it just is how it is.

I've had some excellent tenants over the years, have never increased rent (until they vacate and I usually adjust the rate then) and make sure everything is fixed quickly - but I accept I'm in the minority.

Personally I'm dead against non-fault evictions as they are currently - a tenant should feel they have a home for as long as they need it for unless there's extenuating circumstances.

Ach they just need to pick a reason. Shelters link is more comprehensive .

bottom line is though landlords are selling up in their droves , whic in many areas is making supply tight and of course increasing rent due to demand outstripping supply . The fear you can’t get someone out is very damaging, in reality it’s a tiny percentage of folks who need to be evicted by a court . It’s doing huge damage to the rental market and irs renters who are now paying a hefty price as their rents go up or properties become scarce

https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/eviction/eviction_after_a_section_8_notice

It would be easy to get around that though. Whack up the rent, tenant falls into arrears, boom! Section 8.

I'm not an LL. and again it's very area dependent but as a renter for the better part of a decade very few LL's kick people out for no reason. Well, the law abiding ones anyway.

And when it 'does' happen the tenants who have gotten so used to below market rate struggle to find anywhere else, which is what's happening now.

Housing is a human need and should really be socially provided FIRST, IMO, with private rentals only for those who want something more luxurious/airbnb etc. Such an important amenity should a) not have been financialised to this degree or b) left up to the private sector to provide!

Private landlordism should go back to where it was in the 80s.

Build more social housing and wipe out private landlords.

I can understand why the Tories are against social housing but the lack of building by Labour through the 00's was ridiculous. Unless of course Tory Blair was trying to buy the middle class - then it might make some sort of sense.

Also little known fact, Thatcher built more council houses in 1 year during office than Tory Blair did during the whole duration of his.

It's worth considering the enormity of that.

Bbc say the tories will now end section 21 no fault notices.

if I was a landlord, accidental or intentional, I would issue it today. Can’t have anyone telling me I can’t dispose of an asset. Would want to fight to regain a property.

Partner and I heading out on a world tour shortly - she’s just said, that’s definately not an option for her house then, it gets sold or gifted to one of the kids to live in, earlier than planned.

@CuriouslyDifferent ”Can’t have anyone telling me I can’t dispose of an asset.”

You haven’t bothered reading it then?

Landlords can take possession if they are going to sell.

I think tenants need to try to protect their credit score. Having a CCJ against their name will mean a new potential LL won't go near them.