Side-return Extension (Ground Floor Flat)

[Londonfry]

I am about to start a party wall process with my upstairs neighbour. I have discussed with her my plans to build a side-return extension in my garden and even shared the engineering drawings to help her understand my project. However, she has raised concerns about the roof lights that I am planning to put on top of my extension, and asked how she would be able to extend her flat on top of my planned extension!!

I would like to inform her that building on top of my future extension would be considered an encroachment of my property and a violation of my boundaries. As the freeholder of the ground floor, I have the right to determine how my property is used and developed, and her proposed extension on top of my future extension would not be allowed. Additionally, the foundation of my future extension would only support one story, so building on top of it would not be feasible.

I want to make sure I communicate in a polite and respectful manner when informing her that I won't be able to allow her to build on top of my future extension. I am concerned that if I'm too forceful, she might become difficult during the party wall process and make it harder for me to start my project. As the freeholder of the first flat, she still has to approve my extension as I have to modify a wall that we both own.

Has anyone else been in a similar situation? Your help would be appreciated.

I think you can just be factual and say the new extension will not be structurally strong enough to support an upper story so she won't be able to extend her flat. I think as it is a single storey extension she can't prevent too much as really it will have little impact on her.

Hi @Londonfry - what an odd one!

I’d write / message back something along the lines on “unfortunately, roof lights or not, you would never be able to build on top of the ground floor side extension, it would violate boundaries.
Feel free to take a look at the planning portal for our borough (send her the link), and you will see that no applications for this type of extension have ever been granted. Of course if you would like to verify this for yourself, you have my drawings and structural plans available so you can take these to your own architect to confirm (albeit you will be charged for this)”

I have just gone through the party wall process myself in London. Our neighbours home is owned by the Council so by default we had to get a party wall surveyor. If you have planning permission in place then your neighbour cannot stop your build process. Send her the formal party wall letter giving an appropriate start date (I think it is 8 weeks notice minimum?) and the worst she can do is insist on a party wall surveyor. This cost c.£1k - a pain, but they will make sure things move along.

Unless I'm mistaken, you are not freeholder of the ground floor and she the freeholder of the first floor - surely you are shared freeholders? So you both equally own the building. You obviously, therefore, need to keep in her good books as you will require her permission to carry out the work and will need to have solicitor involvement to amend your title plan to include the side return and new layout (and follow whatever else is mentioned in your lease regarding alterations).

She obviously can't build above - that's insane! I would explain two story side extensions aren't ever granted (assume this is a terrace conversion?) plus the garden and side return space are demised to you so she couldn't build above your land.

If she is your only neighbour then she presumably has the loft space, and you could offer support for her own building plans in regard to this - eg a loft conversion or roof terrace. She will need your permission to do so and cooperation with scaffolding in your garden.

The above poster is right that you wouldn't be freeholders of each of your flats, you would both have joint freehold for the full property and the ground it sits on. So you would need to keep her on side for her to grant permission for this.

I'm also in a similar position but the other way around, and extended the first floor up and would have definitely had some concerns about a kitchen extension bearing the weight of a my loft conversion. But you could reassure her that it's common to extend both the loft and kitchen together and this shouldn't impact structure.

You could also offer support for her own build if she chooses to do this. She wouldn't be able to build directly above your extension but will be able to build above her flat in the area above your kitchen with your permission (I did this with an l shaped conversion). You can barely see this extension from the ground floor garden but it makes a huge difference to space in the first floor flat - an extra double bedroom.

Your side return is also technically her land, so you may have to pay her for her dhare of it before you build. I got around that by buying the full freehold of the property myself, so that's also an option if she's happy with that, and means things are a bit more clear cut.

So basically, I suggest having a chat with her about extensions for both flats and let her know that you will also support hers and that neither will need to pay the other for their share of the land etc.

I don't understand any of the technicalities or legalities, just happened upon this thread.
But why not just go halves on a 2 story extension for the both of you and you get the ground floor and she gets the 1st floor?

I also think it's a bit much asking for permission to extend and then being slightly outraged when she brings up the same. If you want to extend (along with all the inconvenience that brings to your neighbour) I'd really strongly suggest supporting her plans too. Obviously just point out that directly above a side return extension would be unusual, but you can be flexible about an L-shaped loft extension etc.

If you have planning permission in place then your neighbour cannot stop your build process.

Not true unfortunately.

PP just gives you permission to build under planning legislation. You still have to get all other necessary approvals and consents to implement the permission eg you can obtain PP for development on land you don't own - you obviously need the consent of the owner to carry out the development.

Ground floor freeholder owns the solis and the solum basically the bottom and the top to property boundary so technically you ask them if you want to encroach on their space balcony or dormer windows etc. other flats own their walls unless otherwise specified.

@HelloWorldLovelyDay This makes sense. I would definitely support an L-shaped loft conversion by my upstairs neigbhour, but that is not her intention. Instead, she wants me to build a flat-roofed side extension (without roof lights), so that she can extend her flat on top of it. I am unsure if this is allowed by building regulations, and I am concerned about the potential impact an upper story would have on my right-to-light and ventilation. Ventilation is especially important for fire safety. Additionally, my side-return extension will extend up to the shared wall with my other neighbour on the ground floor, who has given me his approval. So, this means that I cannot install side windows that would look directly into his garden. My ground-floor neighbour also has a rear space and would like to have the option to carry out a similar extension in the future, which I am completely fine with. Therefore, my only option is to have roof lights and explain this to my upstairs neighbour. By the way, the council has already approved my plan to do the side return extension.

@Fisherstevens I agree that we need to work together as shared freeholders to find a solution that benefits both of us. However, I have concerns about her proposed extension plan and its impact on my property rights, particularly with regard to natural light, ventilation, and fire safety. While I am open to finding a solution that would allow her to extend her flat, I find her suggestion to build on top of my future side extension a bit cheeky, given the impact it could have on my property. I would be willing to consider other options such as a loft conversion or roof terrace, that would allow her to expand her living space without negatively affecting my property.

Assuming you own the land the extension is being built on, any first floor extension over your side return would result in a flying freehold which you don't have to agree to!

@SinisterKnitter Your comment makes sense to me! As I see it, I am planning to extend my property within the boundaries and land that I own. It seems to me that my neighbour is 'testing the waters' to see if she can take advantage of my future extension. I am almost certain that if she were in my position, she would never agree to her own request. I will have to explain my position diplomatically to her to avoid any complications during the party wall process.

If you are joint freeholders though you both own the ground. I think you need some legal advice here.

@SELondonLurker Thanks for your comment! Do you know if there is a limit to the fees that I should pay for my neighbour’s surveyor? I ‘d like to avoid paying crazy amounts.

@Londonfry unfortunately there is no limit to what a surveyor could charge, BUT a reputable firm should really be charging no more than £1-1.5k to draw up a party wall agreement. We had three quotes and they all came within this range.

The only caveat to this is there are two routes for instructing the surveyor:

1. Joint Surveyor - this surveyor acts for both you and your neighbour and you only need to pay one set of fees (covers by you). In your party wall letter you can recommend a surveyor to act jointly for you both (this is what I did), or ask if they have a preference
2. Independent Surveyors - in this instance, you and your neighbour each appoint your own surveyors and they coordinate between themselves. Unfortunately in this instance you have to pay two sets of fees (and it must all be covered by you)

If you don’t keep things cordial between you, I assume your neighbour could be more likely to go for #2 as it costs you a lot more money. BUT on the flip side, if they have their own future extension plans then they’ll need to follow the same process and you could do the same back. Perhaps find a way of casually mentioning that in conversation, E.g “if you do want to get a surveyor in, perhaps a joint one would be best? That way I won’t have to pay double fees for the agreement and if you decide to do your own extension down the line, we could use them again and save you paying double as well”

@Londonfry

Sorry, two additional points worth noting:

1. as part of the party wall agreement the surveyor drew up, they required a pre-sign off from Building Control. This meant we had to instruct a private BC firm (you can use the Council, they’re cheaper but I would NOT recommend this) and send them all our plans prior to the build starting. They reviewed and come back with any comments or changes. Our architect then actioned these (at no additional cost to us) and we sent revisions over to the surveyor. This cost for the pre-sign off was £500+VAT. At first I was frustrated with the extra cost but actually think it was worthwhile in the end; BC raised a number of comments which led to a few needed changes AND we flew through the BC process during the actual build as all parties knew the plans were 10/10
2. For our recent loft extension, when having the plans drawn up and put through planning etc we submitted them alongside plans for a side return extension. The meant the architects drawings and calculations took into consideration the weight of the loft extension for the side return (even though we haven’t yet built it but have done the loft). If your neighbour decides to get a loft extension done in the future, this will be something her architect has to consider, but isn’t really a worry for you

I'm not a lawyer but previously owned a share of freehold flat in
London.

Reference this comment (sorry, I can't quote a quote)

"@SinisterKnitter Your comment makes sense to me! As I see it, I am planning to extend my property within the boundaries and land that I own. It seems to me that my neighbour is 'testing the waters' to see if she can take advantage of my future extension. I am almost certain that if she were in my position, she would never agree to her own request. I will have to explain my position diplomatically to her to avoid any complications during the party wall process."

My understanding is that you don't own the land. You and the other shared free holder jointly own the land. It will probably state in your lease documents what you are permitted to do, but it's quite possible that without her agreement, you can't do anything without contravening your lease, regardless or not if you have council permission.

Yeah that's why I prefaced with 'Assuming you own the land' because tbh it's not clear in OP's posts.

I am a share of freeholder and own the ground floor flat of a two flat converted victorian house in london.

I have full access to the garden and external area and own it according to the lease. I just had someone round to come assess it for a side extension (sounds similar to yours) and I've been told it's illegal in the UK for flats to do rear or side extensions. How did you get around this?

Regards
S

@ShayanM It's not illegal. Flats don't have the same rights has houses and always need to apply for full planning permission for all additions, extensions and outbuildings. Houses can sometimes build these without requiring full planning permission.

I would tread carefully as your neighbour has the power to completely put the brakes on your plan. You are both freeholders so have equal say in any development. You have the lease for the ground floor flat and the garden and therefore any extension to her flat is over your demise.

Is there precedent for this kind of scene in your area? That would easily shut her down. Sorry the council would never allow it, out of my hands.

Alternatively, point out the only way you can extend is to have roof lights. Without them, neither of you will be extending. Could backfire as it’s no skin off her nose.

Talk to her about possible ways she can extend, eg roof.

Or, tell her if she wants to extend in the future you can adjust/ remove the roof lights or what ever is needed. And then don’t. There’s nothing she could do about it later. Maybe do this verbally.

You do need to keep her sweet, your OP sounds a bit incredulous, dial it down.