Extending and renovating 1920s house - hire project manager?

[henrilechat]

Help! We’ve just had an offer accepted on a house that needs a load of work doing - at least partially rewiring, a two storey extension etc - and we have no idea what we’re doing… It feels a bit mad to be taking this on with zero experience or knowledge but we’d been house hunting for nearly two years so we’re desperate!

I know that we need a full structural survey, then an architect before we engage builders. I’m pretty sure we’re going to need planning permission.

So given we don’t know what we’re doing, would it be worth hiring some kind of project manager? What exactly do they do and how much do they cost? Our budget isn’t that generous considering how much needs doing but we’re wondering if it makes sense.

Also, are there any particularly good online guides/resources that any one could recommend please? Basically, any advice would be much appreciated. Thank you!

Placemarking as I'm also buying a 20s house!

I know that when doing an extension 15 years ago, having a real architect do the designs was very helpful, plus choosing a very good builder. If I were doing that again (which I never would), I would go for a big building firm with project management included (if there is such a thing). I have to say I think the perfect renovation probably doesn't exist, it's always going to be fairly awful.

Dh and I did something similar. The architects will help to not only do your detailed drawing but also they should know about local planning permission and when to engage a structural engineer (they often know someone they trust). Then you'll have your plans and can go out to get quotes from builders. My advice would be to go with a builder that will do the lot, rather than try and save money by getting your own plumbers, electricians etc. You'll end up managing more than you want to and it'll lead to problems if you're not experienced (as you've said).

So, selecting a builder who can take on the whole job will save you so much hassle and they will manage it. One point of contact and accountability.

All depends on the value of the property and value of work being undertaken

The Mumsnet algorithm just took me to a thread where people were universally saying how poor architects were at designing to a budget! So don't take my word as gospel. I can only say that mine came recommended by multiple local friends as an absolute magician on small residential projects in a conservation area, and our experience bore that out.

@PermanentTemporary
Do you mean an architect as opposed to an architect technician, or an architect rather than getting a building company to draw up plans?
A friend recommended getting just an architect technician as we just need an extra bedroom and a bigger kitchen, rather than a big fancy redesign where we knock down all the walls and build a beautiful glass box type thing!

That's a good point @SquigglyGum, I think that would be our preference but I think the good big firms round here have really long waiting lists.
Would having a big company coordinate everything help with keeping on top of the million small decisions that need making like which light switches and where they go etc?

We have just finished the structural works on what was an almost derelict 4 bed house property. The neighbour thought it was 1910's and others 1930's- so a similar age to your house. We got a few quotes for architects. I wasn't keen on them taking 20% of the over all build cost so found someone that took just a fee. If I wanted gold taps and diamond handles, I don't see why they should take 20% of that cost! My terminology might be wrong, but I think you can also get a draftsman to actually draw up the extension if you know what you want.

We were only adding a small 3x4m, 2 storey extension to the house- which did need planning permission for. I 'think' it a junior at the architects that drew up the plans and was signed off by the actual architect.

If you have no idea, a project manager might be good idea. I have no idea of costs though. DH runs his own business and we both work full time, but DH somehow managed to also project manage it! He did a massive amount of research each day though. We got local trades- who in turn, recommended others. We were very fortunate.

Was your property lived in for the past 2yrs? If no- you can request the empty homes team at your council to view the property and provide a certificate. If empty 2-10yrs- you only pay 5% on structural things to get the property back to a livable home. Empty 10yrs+ and you pay 0% VAT!

Happy to answer any questions you have.

I think it depends on your budget. We have a 1920s house, and are mid way through renovating it. Even managing it ourselves, and using an architectural technician on a flat fee (£4K ish) we are looking to spend about £170k. This includes a smallish single storey extension and some structural work inside. The quotes we got from the build and manage companies were astronomical though.

Through trial and error we've managed to find some great trades. There have been big discrepancies in prices however, with some charging double what others are.

We've recently done some major renovations and we had an architect in for the design and my husband project managed it. It was very full on and he's retired so that was Ok but I think it would be difficult to project manage it whilst trying to work as well. Also he's an engineer which came in very handy multiple times!

I’m a project manager. Depending on the size and scale of the interventions you’re making it could make sense, but I would suggest a good architect or building surveyor can do most refurbs up to £5m build value without a PM. Building surveyors are particularly good at designing all aspects of the build and appointing and managing the contractor. They don’t just do mortgage surveys. Google a grew building surveying consultancies and see for yourself. They can also advise on planning. Architects can do all of this too, and often have more flair/creativity in terms of designs. They can sometimes be more expensive than a building surveyor.

Forgot to add, if you want the architect or surveyor to act as the project manager please state this clearly at the outset else you might get asked for additional fees.

You've zoomed right in on my least favourite part of renovating! The millions of decisions that you don't care about until you realise you do and it's so hard! Yes having one contractor can help in that they should say that by x date we need to decide on door handles or whatever, and sometimes they can provide options but the benefit is more in coordination of timing and they can actually acquire them with their trade discounts. We worked with a friend who is an interior designer to whittle down the options to about 3 rather than 10000 door handles.. otherwise you'll have to get researching, which some people love and others (me) loathe.

I wouldn't say you need a large company, just one that can manage the whole job and have links with good tradies so you don't have to coordinate them all. And with weekly (at least) catch ups there's a chance to ask all those questions and know what's coming up so you can be on time with decision making.

Slightly younger house by about ten years but we had a full building survey, then used a structural engineer to do the drawings and beam calculations, then a biggish local building company to manage the whole thing. Structural engineer was recommended by building company but we paid him directly. Building company charged 18% to manage but meant we didn't have to be constantly on site to receive and check deliveries or coordinating trades.

We didn't need anything big - just moving a few walls and some plumbing so an architect seemed a bit over the top.

We also found the bigger company had better availability as they could slot us in around other jobs more easily, whereas smaller builders could only have one or two on the go at once. The bigger company was a 3 month wait whereas smaller would have been more than 9 months.

Check if they do commercial work too - ours didn't take on houses during the summer as they did a lot of work on schools during July and August.

I'd recommend the Haynes Manual for your particular era of house. It helped me understand construction and why certain things were the way they are.

as we just need an extra bedroom and a bigger kitchen,

this doesn’t sound like a big and complex project and you say that your budget isn’t generous (although really this could mean anything)

So if you hire a project manager you will blow a few thousand that could have gone on that much nicer finish.

It really depends whether hiring a project manager is going to impact the build.

but from you’ve what you’ve said… I really don’t think a PM would be a decent spend of money

I realised I missed out a fairly important detail... I have some health issues that cause fatigue and we have two young kids with additional needs, so we don't have loads of spare capacity for managing a project, that's partly why I wondered if we needed a project manager. If I can't remember to reply to a Mumsnet post I made, I wonder how I can fit in all the other stuff! But it's good to read that maybe it's not entirely necessary.

Thanks @freshstartahead I had no idea that building surveyors could do this. It's helped me narrow down the surveyors that I'd been recommended to the two that I now see offer this service!

Oh yikes @A1b2c3d4e5f6g7 170k is pretty much our budget for the whole lot. It sounds like we might be a bit naive thinking we can get a two storey extension plus other works for that. I know build costs have gone up a lot but I didn't realise our budget was that unrealistic...

We hired a architect and he organised a structural engineer. I got plans from them which has been approved by building control. Then I got a builder that does the full job. He organised plumbers, electricians, roofers, windows. I'd say he's project managing for us. DH and I both work full time and we have small children. We can't manage project managing extension on top of our jobs. It's a first floor extension and costs £100k, including architect and structural engineer fees to everything inside with flooring and bathrooms. I think the £170k from the other PP sounds about right given they are project managing themselves.

Some people will count the end of the project as after first fix. At that point the house is safe and water tight. So it'll be up to you to decide if you want it to finish till when you can move into the room, or if it's ok to be structurally sound and you carry on from that point with DIY.

Even with a project manager I think you will end up making lots of decisions, we really ran out of oomph on a 2 year projects.

We had a recommended architectural technician draw up the plans, he also handled planning and building regs. He also ran a tender for builders - we had 3 apply in the end. And went through the quotes with us. Worth every penny of his time.

We were having an extension built and work done inside. We sorted out bathroom renovation x 2 first with a different firm, who ended up replacing pipes, radiators and the water tank with a megaflo. So they could take up floorboards, take off radiators and didn't matter that they left a bit of a mess of walls etc.

The only issue with that was we chose tiled floors for one bathroom that was above where new extension was and really lino/click fit would have been better as the extension wiring could have been reached from above rather than below. But it wasn't a big thing really.

The building company employed their own men and contractors (electric/plumbing) and scheduled all the work, kept in touch with us and forewarned us about when different bits of the house would be out of action. We were living in it.

But there was still lots of questions to answer and decisions to be made and once you see something actually up you realise that doorway might be better placed slightly differently and stuff like that.

For example once the kitchen extension was built we realised we'd rather the builder did a big tall corner cupboard than us having additional units.

Ours, priced pre -Covid and built during Covid - was £200K for single storey big extension, moving stairs in side to open up loft, all ground works and reinstating garden, decoration, flooring, new kitchen and appliances and 2 new bathrooms, new boiler and contingency (a wall needed underpinning).

Our think you might be being a bit optimistic with your budget....

This blog was incredibly helpful when we did our full renovation https://join.fifimcgee.co.uk/home-renovation-planning-guide-6-g-ads/?gclid=CjwKCAjwov6hBhBsEiwAvrvN6I0LmajMktVF4DOeVjfX5ZOaRapQkXllMYF7YtBfvq5nm32z0bkh3xoCGvQQAvD_BwE lots of free resources

London, 1920’s mid terrace that was in terrible condition. I used a local architect that has party wall surveyors etc under his company, he recommended a local building control person and gave me names of 3 builders that his previous clients had recommended. The one I chose is known for doing a lot of structural build work and also had the experience with finishing up (painting, new kitchen, new bathroom, under floor heating etc). He had /has different employees who specialise in electrical, plumbing, carpentry work etc.

I have sorted all the things like tiles, bathroom fittings, kitchen fittings etc and his team did the rest. I don’t think there would have been any point using a building manager.

He added a massive steel beam, moved an internal wall, dealt with some appalling diy from the previous owners and the gas, water pipes and wiring from 1950’s to 1980’s. Plus a sewage manhole in the kitchen. Not to mention some pretty bad 1920’s build work.

Do not underestimate current prices - they are terrible and still going up.