Help - I suspect estate agent hasn't told seller of our offer

[barking]

Hi - just wondering what to do....
We've been looking for 6 months and a house we missed has just come back on the market after previous buyers dropping out.

When we viewed, agent said seller is really keen to sell, (it's empty), our first offer was refused, I put in second offer 9am this morning 5k below asking price, and the people buying ours are cash buyers. I've checked our mortgage is portable so just need valuation to get banks approval.

Phoned estate agent 5 times and he keeps stalling, saying he can't get hold of seller, then later said he would try phoning, then said he knows what the seller will say - which is they want to wait a while to let there be other viewings.

Arghhh! I really don't want to lose this house, what are they waiting for? Can I report them? Should I go in in person to get a better response? Feel like this is psychogical warfare and I don't know the rules - don't want to p*ss estate agent off, but feel like he's hiding something.

Is there a way I can contact seller directly?
Help help help

Oh bum, leopard costume not working
Over the last 2 days all going well - we have paid for the survey and searches and our buyer has done the same.
We now have a problem with the person at the end of the chain (our buyers buyer) saying he can't pay full price after all as he believes the market is weak - he dropped 25K and we dropped 10k to help our buyer yesterday to stay in the chain. We have now received another phone call from our buyer to say he has done it again today - haven't seen the news but he is saying that he can't get the mortgage he was previously getting (I was told he was a cash buyer and needs to spend another 5k on a different mortgage.

His situation (from what I understand is he is a neigbour who wants to buy her house and garden, get the deeds changed so the garden becomes his and sell the house on again without garden. I don't know enough about the financial market but couldn't he get a bridging loan instead of mortgage if he is selling it on again?

He seems to be playing this for all its worth and taking massive advantage of this being a private sale and one that requires 100% commitment and speed. Both ourselves and our buyer have spent over £700 each so far. I understand he has booked survey but don't trust him as worried he will keep chipping away at price after survey and at point of exchange of contracts. I know the market is wobbling but worried we will end up with a massive mortgage again and a house we can't afford.

Our buyer ideally wants to drop her buyer but is also terrifed that she can't guarantee a sale and may lose ours with so many nervous buyers and sellers.

We really feel our buyer is commited - but her buyer is being so flaky we are also thinking of putting ours on open market but again worried for the same reaons - no sale would be guaranteed.

We haven't dare tell the estate agents any of this as they will probably put it back on market. Shoud I tell them? I have told solicitor and she recommended we ask for a reduction at point of exchange of contracts - is this normal? I just don't feel confident in playing these games and bluffing.

Oh bum

bump

Oh barking

Having a proper read through and will post back in a minute or so.

Right you could say to your buyer (link 2)I am really sorry but we have dropped down by £10K and we are unable to go any furthur so if any furthur price reductions are required then I am sorry but the answer will be a no. Link 2 can the relay this to Link 1 (without being cynical it could be a plan they have agreed on together)and he knows where he stands and can either - excuse my language "pee on the potty or get off"

Problem with this is that link 1 could then walk away and you and link 2 are then an incomplete chain. However it is probably better that you know now and not at the end of the 3 weeks.

Keep in reserve the option of asking for a price reduction from link 4 (Dream Houses Vendor) as Plan B and a last chance. You don't want to annoy them so early on in the transaction.....later on in the process is perfectly acceptable Also your solicitor would handle the negotiations if a reduction was sought so close to an exchange, you would not personally have to do it which is always nicer.

I hope this makes snese I will reread after I have posted - hideous cold has affected my brain

Yes I think sending a clear message to link 2 and in turn link 1 re. the price reduction has got to be the way forward. It is always going to be a balancing act keeping everybody happy. We had a set of purchasers for our house who offered a price, we rejected, they increased etc etc until we got to an acceptable figure and then they submitted a list of things they wanted including - my lovely Fisher & Paykel fridge, wall mounted flat screen tv in kitchen etc etc and we said increase or not included. They refused and we said deal off which was risky as we badly needed a buyer but I got a gut feeling about them as being complete pains and they did walk away. a few weeks later we got the good buyer who did perform in 6 weeks. The point of all that rambling is that it is better to know where you are from the start rather than getting to day of exchange and it all falling to bits.

Keep positive it is one of the many problems you will have to get through along the way. On days when it is all looking like a rather large steaming pile I would drive past Dream House and remind myself why we were going through all of it

Is the garden link 1 is after big enough to redevelop or does he purely want it for the garden for himself and family?

bump for barking

where are you barking?

Oh what a rollercoaster.

Popped in quickly yesterday and saw that all seemed well (didn't have time to post). Sorry to see that things are bumpy again. Honestly, it's a wonder anyone ever manages to move house in this country.

No words of wisdom, just sending lots of good vibes...

Hi Smurfs and Barbarawoodlouse
Thank god you're about - I need the voices of reason!

Have had buyer around today, still very commited. I suggested we try and get a straight answer out of her neigbour (yes he wants garden for himself, which I understand will add £25k value on to his property, do some small updating on house then sell it back on to open market) so I really don't understand why he is spending £5K on a application fee, when he will be selling property on. I suggested he gets some better financial advice or searches for a better deal himself - he has said he has confidence in his financial advisor

My buyer is feeling really overwhelmed by trying to negotiate privately with someone who is very aggresively asking for discounts, she did try saying no, but he keeps saying that this is the most he can afford (these goal posts keep moving though!)

I feel we are paying for some poncy application fee that isn't necessary. My dh initially agreed to £5k discount last night as he thought I had said yes - I actuallly hadn't as we couldn't hear ourselves over the wails of very tired, hungry children. I understand he has 65k deposit and is raising capital on his existing house and business for the mortgage - do I ask for more information on his finances?

Do I say I never agreed to 5k drop and risk the chain breaking?

Do I let other people see our house even though this family really wants is and are lovely? - feel I am getting very emotionally involved with them which probably isn't the best way forward as we are getting a blow by blow account of her problems with her buyer and consequently my dh allowed her to ask for another drop in price without thinking it through. It did briefly occur to me they could be working this together but after today hearing her on the phone and seeing all the stress she was under I very much doubt it.

Have lost ability to think straight but just really worried that we will lose the house we want.

Oh heavens how many times have I checked this thread today Children are rampaging around so will feed the little darlings and post soon.

Now go and repeat until bedtime - I will get my house, I will get my house......

Oh barking....I don't like the sound of this. Your buyer has got to be assertive and say to the top link NO MORE PRICE REDUCTIONS (sorry to shout!) Buy my property at £x or it goes back onto the open market. This is one of the problems of not using an Estate Agent as all the negotiations become very personal. However could she summon up the courage to be firm with him, maybe your buyer could speak to his wife or get her husband/partner to speak to link no. 1. I wouldn't advise you to get involved in any face to face negotiations where link 1 and link 2 are negotiating this out as it is far too an emotional situation.

Worst case scenario and bottom link walks away and your buyer has to find a buyer really, really quickly - so she then has to make sure that it is priced to sell quickly, is beautifully presented, the agents organise an open day or at the very least she gives the agents a key so that they can do viewings at short notice. I know at the back of your mind you have the 3 weeks to exchange issue but it is very unlikely that they will strictly impose it i.e. withdraw the contract at 12 noon 3 weeks after sale was agreed. They know that you have a survey booked and that you have started to spend money with your solicitor and that this was all quickly organised so they will not be doubting your commitment

I am in all evening so will check back later and will have thought of more concrete things

barking, what is link no 1 spending £5k on - application?? is this to alter the deeds so that it no longer contains the garden element? The more I think about this the more I am quite happy to start shouting on your behalf.

link no. 1 needs to stop trying to pull a fast one and your buyer needs to start being truthfull - she has I would suggest lied to you. Correct me if I am wrong she is cash....so is she downsizing, has just received an inheritance or has a huge pot of cash? If none of those then she is not cash just because she is under offer/has accepted an offer does not mean she is cash! How is she financing the purchase of your house? From profit in current house and a mortgage?

She sounds very keen and thus she needs to find some big balls and;

a) giving buyer an ultimatium - buy at x or lose property.

b) put house on open market at a keen asking price with a view to getting it sold asap. In the current I would suggest that this would have to be at below market value

c) instructing an Estate Agent to handle all the negotiations with her buyer from now. Obviously there will be a charge for this although she can fix the figure with the Estate Agent and it will be less than if they had introduced a buyer, done viewings, prepared details etc.

You have to be firm but fair. Yes your buyer seems nice and you are emotionally committed to her however if it comes to it that she cannot proceed you risk losing Dream House. It doesn't matter that she likes your house you just need a good buyer and quite frankly if the Man in the Moon made you a good offer and could proceed you would be well advised to sell to him! Thus try to set aside your emotions to link no.2 and be prepared to rethink.

Is Dream House and your house on with the same Estate Agent?

How long did yours take to sell?

Could you afford to put yours back on the market at less than you accepted for it from link 2?

Off to do bath and bed - back later

Have just had another read, think I've caught up!

First of all, barking, it's Friday evening, nothing is going to happen so take some time to chill out with DH and really talk. Like you say, it's so easy to get caught up in all the chaos and jump to decisions you may later regret.

As ever, great advice from Smurfs

FWIW, I think your buyer's buyer is, quite frankly, taking the mickey. Suspect he's got wind of the fact that you and she are so emotionally involved with your respective sales and is trying to bully you both into dropping further than you should.

The £5K "application fee" sounds totally bogus to me. He's already got £25K off (if I read it correctly) and is now pushing for £30K. That's a pretty big drop I'd say, even in a slowing market. I really think, for now at least, you have to signal very clearly to your buyer: no more price reductions (see I didn't shout ). Be very clear on this to her.

Now, what should she do? I would say that you should suggest to her that she considers putting her house on with an agent. Point out to her that an agent's fee is going to be far less than £5K. It will send a clear message to her neighbour that she isn't messing around. Also, she should check out the contract (if she gets to this point) but she should be able to register her neighbour's prior interest so if he were eventually to buy from her she shouldn't have to pay the agent's fee.

I'm not necessarily saying that dumping her current buyer (neighbour) is the way to go as I know time is of the essence but maybe by being clear to both of them that you are standing firm on this one (even if you change your mind later on in the negotiation) might be enough to stop them messing you around.

Look at it this way. Her neighbour wants a bigger garden without moving house. How many properties are there that will give him this option? Just the two I'd say. And your buyer owns one of them! I would suggest that he's pretty committed to this sale too, no matter what he might say.

Now, relax............

Hi Smurfs - thank you for fab reply
She is selling her house then using the cash to buy mine - so in effect no she isn't a cash buyer until she is sold.

He insisits the £5k is for an application fee - I thought they averaged about £1000 for survey and application, this amount sounds incredible for someone who is in effect only holding onto a property for a few months before he sells it on again.......I also think this must include solicitors fees or he's just trying it on.

I am so tired and ratty that I'm probably not thinking straight, but think we should refuse the £5k reduction and make him sweat over the weekend. If he decideds not to proceed over this relatively small amount then we are all back to square one. Not sure if this is sensible given the daily newspaper reports, I could be looking back in a few months thinking even with comign down in price it is still a very good offer.

Mine not with an agent - we were only thinking about selling in the spring, they knocked on the door back in November and wanted it on the spot. There were 4 other people interested who we have contacted this week and only 1 is in no chain but looking for slightly less than our current offer - do I contact them again or am I just making life more complicated - I don't want to mess people about.

Given the wobbly market things would be very tight if we sold it on open market with agents fees at less than current offer.

Excellent idea about using an agent to negotiate - I had never heard of that, I will put it to them

The more I think about it, I think I would carry on with both buyers if we could trust this guy at the end to stop bringing the price down. Maybe he would have done this later on in anyway after survey, maybe he still will. I just want a bit of distance between us all, as like you say, its all getting terribly personal.

It wasn't that long ago when we were in a similar situation where the sellers wanted 10k more to buy the house they wanted.

Anyway enough about bloomin houses - how is your little one Smurfs?

Hi Barbarawoodlouse
Thank you for your soothing words, you're right, tis the weekend and nothing can be done apart from lots of pontificating!

I really agree about the garden issue, I can't believe he will walk away over a £5k application fee - If he insists this is what he needs, I think I will ask for proof next week. But what if he calls our bluff? It could be a very expensive gamble and no house at the end of it.

Oh dear can someone remind me how to breathe out.....?

Hello barking and BWL

I think all you can do is sit tight, there is always one link in the chain that makes it soooo much more stressful for everybody else - almost like you can't move house without one for some reason

Keep busy, distracted and these things do have a way of rectifying themselves. You are on good terms with your buyer so you need to remain united and both have a consensus of opinion that there will be no furthur negotiations on price.....I have stopped shouting Link no. 1 will get the message and then I would imagine that the process will move onto the next niggle which will seem minor in comparison. Like he will want the back door painting a different colour or can his children come and have a look...(a question our buyer asked a day before exchange - my reply was not unless they are paying the mortgage

So in essence chew those finger nails no more, chill and remember I am available for shouting.....

DS is so much better, thank you for asking - hip is no longer completly immobile and pain is considerably less. DD is also over the worse still spotty but much happier with herself. Seem to be over the worst now

Smurfs - "Like he will want the back door painting a different colour or can his children come and have a look...(a question our buyer asked a day before exchange - my reply was not unless they are paying the mortgage"
Oh my God! Love your sense of humour!

Managed to get a full nights sleep so feeling much better about things this morning. I'm sitting tight. Poised. Ready to spring - yet slightly relaxed (ish)

Am watching this thread and have my fingers crossed for you barking. Really hope you get your house.

Have no idea what you are all on about. I am in Australia and we don't have chains and all the rest.

You see a house...you put in offer.....they accept.....you pay deposit.......5 day cooling off period to change mind.....it goes off market......(noone can change their mind or reduce offers).....it settles.

Fingers crossed. It sounds quite stressful.

Thanks Mymama
Sounds very sensible and straightforward in Austrailia!
We have friends in NZ and it is our very long term dream to go out there, It all looks so complicated, they say much better to try and go for it while the children are still young and I have been looking into possiblitity of trying to get over on a study visa. Were you born over there?

Tiny steps first though - if we get this place I will be over the moon, don't know about you - but I get restless every few years and have to do something slightly barking - hence the name

Why doesn't your buyer put her house back on the market? If her neighbour wants it that badly, he'll stop playing silly buggers. And she may find a buyer prepared to pay more than her neighbour.

Hi Freckle
Just got off the phone and she said if he agrees to no more reductions she will continue the sale with him, otherwise she will be puttting it on the open market on monday - hopefully this will help him focus a little better and see the light

Good move. He seems to think he holds all the cards, but, if she chooses not to sell to him, he not only loses the change to extend his garden, but will have no choice over who his future neighbours will be .

Hello barking

away from computer this morning running errands

that does sound more positive hurrah for link no.2 being brave she sounds like she has realised that if she loses her buyer she might miss out on the chance to buy your house! It is time link no.1 behaves himself I feel or he loses the chance to have a bigger garden.

Glad you are feeling a bit more relaxed, as BWL says there is little that can be done on a weekend. So spend some time with your DC and Mr barking doing non-housey things in a few weeks you will be so busy packing or my prefered option making cups of tea and profering copious amounts of Jaffa Cakes to the packers... deep breaths and chill...
Smurfs

Yes was born in Australia. dh's parents hail from over your way.

Yes I do get restless every couple of years and do something a bit mad. End of last year we took our 3 dc to UK/Europe for 3 months.

positive vibes. you WILL get the house.