Building regulations help...

[Yellowbus]

Hi all,

We found a "perfect" house for us in a good area/schools.

Had an offer accepted on this 4bed/2bath including loft conversion.

However there are no building completion certificates and apparently it's done before the vendors bought it 20+ yrs ago. We are awaiting survey report but the surveyors key findings for loft were: looks ok but needs fire doors and fire resistant paint.

An indemnity may be an option but not sure it solved the issue.

Questions:

• has anyone had an invasive loft survey done to assess likelihood of successful regularisation? How disruptive was it/how much did they have to break? Do you need a structural engineer or for this OR a loft specialist.
• for pre 1985 conversions, in the absence of regs, what makes the loft legally habitable?

Huge thanks for any views and advice...

There is no requirement to bring an old loft conversion up to modern standards.

Whether you are happy to use it as a bedroom or not is really up to you, there's no list anywhere of which rooms are legally habitable or not.

Millions of houses have extensions and loft conversions that don't comply with moderns building regs.

An indemnity policy is literally worth less than the paper it's written on. The only thing you're insuring against is the possibility of enforcement action being taken by the local authority, and they only have 12 months in which to do so after the work is completed.

It really comes down to your own personal judgement, and the results contained within your survey report.

Thanks Mildura,

Agree - indemnity isn't giving us any confidence.

I wasn't expecting the loft to comply to modern regulations, but as I understand the Regularisation process, it checks whether it complied with the regs at that time. Hence trying to understand more abt that possibility - if it's worth exploring.

Re habitability - how do home insurers deal with this? Do we declare it as a bedroom and any chance they reject a claim saying it's a false declaration?

And what happens if a few years down the line, we need to do some minor repair/updates to the loft/bathroom that do require building control at that time. Could we be busted then for the whole loft?

With such an old conversion it's basically 'take it as it is', and there's nothing that really defines it as not legally habitable.

You won't be busted for the whole loft for any additional minor works.

I wasn't expecting the loft to comply to modern regulations, but as I understand the Regularisation process, it checks whether it complied with the regs at that time. Hence trying to understand more abt that possibility - if it's worth exploring

That's true. It may depend somewhat on whether any inspections were done by building control whilst the work was taking place, otherwise there's probably a fair amount of the structure that will need to be exposed to check things like floor reinforcement, insulation, roof strengthening.

Re habitability - how do home insurers deal with this? Do we declare it as a bedroom and any chance they reject a claim saying it's a false declaration?

I'm not 100% sure. It might be worth speaking to your existing insurer to explore a 'what if...' scenario. I guess it's a case of being honest that there is an old loft conversion for which you haven't got a completions cert.

Could we be busted then for the whole loft?

The council only have 12 months from the date the work was finished to take enforcement action. The only exception to that is when there is a risk to public safety from extremely substandard work and they can apply for a court order to take action.

It sounds like the conversion is at least 20 years old, but perhaps even more than that. At this stage I would say that regularisation is largely pointless and it's just something you'll have to accept you're either happy with or you're not, based on your surveyors findings.

Thanks @Mildura and @FurierTransform , that's useful perspective.
Still awaiting the detailed survey report.

Another thing on our mind is if we purchase as is (4bed), when we come to sell, we might be challenged that it's actually a 3 bed.

Can you not challenge the seller now that its actually a 3 bed? Whatever they do to reassure you that it's a 4 bed, you can use later when you sell?

Another thing on our mind is if we purchase as is (4bed), when we come to sell, we might be challenged that it's actually a 3 bed

I think beyond a certain point in time whether a loft conversion has got regs sign off or not ceases to be particularly relevant. After 20yrs you’re probably in that zone, and the more time that passes the less relevant it becomes.

Thank you all, and sorry for the delay. Been a busy Friday yesterday.

Also found some information around when completion certificates started to be used regularly in the house buying process - Here. Any thoughts on this?

Still awaiting survey report…

In my area they didn't issue building regs completions certificates automatically before 1990 (only on request) although they do keep some info on records. However the records kept seem to be patchy/variable with a lot of records on microfiche now having been destroyed to save space (would you believe it?). There was a time when building control departments took great pride in their records but now they seem to get rid of them when they can. This is a headache for home purchasers like yourself because it is quite possible that when the loft was built the relevant building control officer was involved at the time but now the records don't exist and then surveyors make you worry by raising lots of doubts! When we bought our house old records still existed going back 30 + years and were able to get written confirmation from building control from their microfiche records to confirm inspection of structural steel work for example. In your case the best approach may be to have someone look at how the loft conversion is performing and see if there are signs of a problem. If there are not it is probably fine but will unlikely be colder in the winter and hotter in the summer than a newer well-insulated loft.

*likely be colder NOT unlikely!

Thanks @Snapdragonsoup .

Can I pls check re:
"When we bought our house old records still existed going back 30 + years and were able to get written confirmation from building control from their microfiche records to confirm inspection of structural steel work for example", (sorry not sure how to quote)

Did you get this as part of your LA search results? Or you got this as part of a separate query to council BC?

I have a back dormer (bungalow) from 1974, I knew there would be no building regs, it wasn’t an issue for me at all. Have a surveyor look it to put your mind at ease.

Ive also just done a front dormer and the building regs folk didn’t even look at the existing dormer, let alone start talking about making it comply.

Thanks @CattySam

You might be able to get written confirmation from Building Control that they've inspected the work and what was seen at the time. They will probably charge an admin fee for this - the file may be stored electronically or on microfiche.

However. Unlike planning applications, BReg files are not public documents. The details in each file, strictly speaking, should only be available to the applicant or their agent that submitted the original application.

I started work in BC in 1990, and we did not do Comp Certs then. We'd just started doing letters with text like "As far as can be ascertained by a visual inspection, all works comply with the Building Regulations (1990)" which weren't really worth the paper they were written on tbh.
Certs came in c1992 iirc, following an updated to the Regs (part B) and had to be requested, they weren't issued as a matter of course at that point...and we were only just going "live" with our IT systems, so nearly everything was card index, registers and paper files. Happy days .

@Yellowbus I agree with @Mildura here . It is up to you whether you consider it to be habitable , up to modern building regs or not ( which are pretty much to keep buildings / rooms safe ) That is your choice.

If you are worrying about whether on resale it may be considered a 3 bed house then I would view it as a 3 bed house now as a pp said

I would get a proper view from a BR person as to whether they would consider it a "proper " 4 bed house or a 3 bed with a "loft room " not a bedroom . This might be useful for insurance. I would always be scrupulously honest with the insurance.

I can't say whether if you did improvements then that may make you do other things to make it into a proper bedroom rather than a loft room but I do know when we had some work done - because of the stairs into attic - no not allowed as a bedroom ( had been one for 30 years ) so we had to have new stairs .

Anyway just one experience and view

I wish you well

As soon as you speak about a conversion which has not followed building regulations or planning rules any indemnity becomes invalid. One to think about.