45 degree, right to light

[AppleZinger]

Has anyone successfully managed to get approval for a single storey extension that breaches the 45 degree rule?

We’re currently working through the first draft of our plans and our architect, (who is experienced in dealing with our LA’s planning department) feels that clever use of glazing in the roof and high level glazing to the extended section of the party wall mean we should still be granted approval, but it’s making me nervous and and I’m wondering if we should just rethink the whole design, rather than getting into a planning battle.

An added complicating factor is that our garden is south facing, so I’m concerned too much roof glazing is going to turn the new kitchen into a greenhouse in summer, given the temperatures we seem to be reaching these days.

Stick to permitted development?
Have you spoken to the neighbours? They might be considering a similar extension, or will you reality annoy them with this extension?

Our neighbours are definitely not planning an extension. They have just had a whole house back-to-brick renovation and live alone, so have no need for more space. We have been through hell with constant building work on their house and garden since the start of 2020, but we’re on good terms and will most likely be using the same builder, who is a close friend of theirs, so they are already aware of the general idea for our extension.

The extension is in two parts. One side is further out than PD (so we will have to go for full planning anyway) but well within the 45 degree of the neighbour on that side (non-attached) as they have already extended and a simple single storey design that shouldn’t be a problem with re planning.

The side we are attached to is the problem. The footprint is just about within PD, but we still have an issue with the 45 degree rule. We could just limit how far we go out on that side, but I’m not convinced of the cost vs benefit of only extending the minimum amount with building costs being so high.

Just trying to work out whether it’s worth a planning battle or not really. Our architect has a track record of getting some quite controversial plans through our planning department though, so maybe we should just give it a try and see what happens.

Get permitted development cert first, then apply for the extra. Although if it will affect the neighbours badly do you really want to live with poor neighbour relations?

I don’t think it will affect them badly to be honest. We’re almost south facing and as it’s going to be single storey, it will cast very little shadow on their rear window, hence the architect thinking with high level windows to the side and a single-pitch glass roof, it won’t reduce their light much, if at all. We already have high fences between us, right up against their windows, so we’re only talking about another metre-ish of height above that (which the architect suggests is all glass).

The reason we have a decent relationship with our attached neighbour is because we have been ridiculously accommodating throughout their renovations, despite them damaging our property on several occasions, promising, then failing to repair the damage and doing things that directly affect us without letting us know in advance (things like building structures and decking etc in their garden that mean they and all their visitors etc, can now see straight into our current kitchen when they are hosting outside, which they do a lot in the summer). We’ve been neighbours for over 20 years and it’s our forever home, so we generally do whatever we can to keep things pleasant between us. In which case, we won’t be attempting to push through anything that they aren’t happy with. We literally just have initial drawings as a basis for discussion at the moment, so plenty of time/scope to work out the best way forward.

Just realised that their non-attached neighbours on the other side already have a much bigger extension on their attached side. Will look it up on the planning portal, as I presume that could be seen as setting a precedent. There is also another identical house a few doors up that has approval for a much larger extension on that side than we are planning, but they haven’t actually done the work yet.

My neighbours did. I objected and they added in the glazing and it got passed. Luckily for me I moved house before they built it. Even though it would not have cast a shadow due to the positioning of the house I did not want to look at the bloody great big wall vrs the lovely green hedge that they were intent on ripping out.

It's 60 degrees on the ground floor so you're in less trouble than you think.

Sorry that happened to you. This is why I don’t want to just inflict something on our neighbour that they will hate. We won’t push anything through if the neighbour isn’t happy. I’m hoping we will be able to reach a compromise that we’re both happy with.

At the moment there’s just a rather unattractive close-board fence between us, as they ripped all the greenery out themselves (front and back, without letting us know, just woke up one morning to chainsaws and wood-chippers - and I won’t get into the resulting massive bonfires all through summer 2021). They were happy enough to build garden structures for entertaining all summer, which massively impact on our privacy without speaking to us at all and they only let us know they were having a full back-to-brick renovation across the whole summer (they moved out) a couple of weeks before work started, because I bumped into them on the drive! We plan to be far more considerate and take their views on board, but we really need this extension. We have two disabled dc who are becoming adults and due to deteriorating health, it now seems will most likely never leave home. We can’t move (for convoluted reasons I won’t go into here) and desperately need more living space.

Having just had a look on Google Earth and Planning Portal I have now realised a couple of other houses in the row have already had much bigger extensions approved, without the glazing element. I was really surprised by that, as I really wouldn’t want to negatively affect my neighbour’s property if it can be avoided and I assumed the Local Authority would have been pretty strict on it anyway.

There is no national policy on this - it's something that individual Council's sometimes include in their Local Plans.
It is often 45degrees - I've never seen 60. Some Councils only apply it to 2 storey additions.
If your architect is familiar with the local Council policies, it's probably best to follow his advice.

@CorpusCallosum That’s interesting, thank you. Our architect is definitely of the opinion that it’s 45 degrees in our case. Does it vary by Local Authority/Planning Department? Can I find out anywhere that’s specific to our area?

A quick google threw up a planning guidance document that states that in our area, the planning department insist it’s 45 degrees from the centre of the window of the nearest habitable room, regardless of the extension height.

@AppleZinger if you go to the planning pages of your council website, look under the policy section. There should be something called a local plan or district plan. If you look through that there will normally be a policy or two relating to residential extensions.
The policy pages may also have supplementary planning guidance on extensions, or a residential design guide.

Ah, annoying. I would have thought if your local area has chosen to be stricter on the 45 vs 60 degrees thing they're less likely to agree to bend their rules 🤔 would a peruse of the planning portal show you what's been agreed/rejected previously?

As it's an area I work in and with your update I'm just checking you've contacted you local authority social care dept about a Disabled Facilities Grant towards the cost of the works for one or both of your children.

If both are eligible you could be looking at £60k towards the costs. But, you won't be eligible if any part of the works has already started.

@Seeline Thank you. I’ve looked it up now. It seems our local planning department us the 45 degree rule for single storey.

@CorpusCallosum Thank you, it’s kind of you to highlight the possibility of going for a DFG. I did look into it in when we first decided to extend, but to be honest, with all the years of fighting the LA, NHS, DWP etc, for support, I have had enough and just want it to get it all sorted as quickly and easily as possible.

I know it might seem silly not to try and claim, but with the run around we have had to prove their disabilities for things like EHCP’s and PIP, despite both being fully diagnosed and clearly disabled and then being constantly messed around and let down even with support supposedly in place, I just can’t face another assessment process. Heaven knows building projects are stressful enough, without the addition of more red tape/paperwork/assessments and I’m not in the best of health myself. We are very fortunate have the funds for the extension due to inheritance too, so I feel like we should leave grant based funding for others who need it more.

Don't put glazing on the boundary or close to it looking into next door. It's bad for both sides. Light pollution, feeling of next door being in your garden / kitchen due to their lighting. Also how would you clean windows on a boundary? What is next door extend to cover the windows?

See this website for some good reasons why not to: www.oakconservatories.co.uk/glazing-next-to-a-boundary-is-not-a-good-move/#:~:text=It%20really%20isn't%20a,as%20an%20insulated%20cavity%20wall.

So, having spent some more time reading the local planning and discussing the issue this morning, it seems we are most likely fine, as the extension won’t breach the 25 degree tilt and between that and our being south facing there would be minimal, if any, loss of light for our neighbour.

We could go with the high level glass for the best chance of planning going straight through or if we prefer not to have it, we will have to see what view planning takes of the plans without. According to the local planning department’s own guidance though, they are flexible with single storey extensions and the 45 degree rule by taking into consideration the 25 degree tilt and the orientation of the property.

Dh is going to go and see our neighbour with the initial drawings at the weekend to have a general chat and maybe take a tape measure, so they can easily see how far the extension will extend along the boundary. We’ve already spoken to them and have been consulting with their friend, who is the builder that did all their work, so they are already aware of what we’re considering doing, but I think it’s sensible to keep them informed and involved as best we can.

I thought of this thread when I saw a house on rightmove today.

The high level windows close to the boundary have a nice view of... a fence.
www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/132730325#/media?channel=RES_BUY&id=media4&ref=floorPlanPage

I wonder what some people are thinking when they put windows on to, or close to a property boundary! Especially with that one because it has skylights anyway.

I hope you are progressing with your architect and neighbour.

I suppose with the windows being small and high up they are thinking about light, more than the view.

Things are progressing here, neighbour doesn’t seem worried about the size, having had a look at the slightly bigger version of the same extension on their other neighbour’s house. It helps that the back of the house gets full sun from the rear for most of the day anyway, so very little shadow from us to them.

Architect is off sick at the moment, but we’ve asked the question, whether the high level glazing will actually help with achieving planning permission and if not, then we don’t want it. If they feel we’ll only get planning with it (which I doubt, as next door but one don’t have any and neither did another similar extension which has planning approval, but hasn’t been built yet) then we will only go ahead with self-cleaning glass and will look into what options we have for how the windows will open, so they can be cleaned from the inside. Our preference is for no boundary windows if ok with our neighbour and planning department though.

Just wanted to update. Our lovely Architect has come up trumps with a clever design that hips the roof on the extension, echoing the line of our main roof, which avoids overshadowing of our neighbour’s window and looks so much better than a square box with a flat roof from their side as well. No side glass required!

It’s going to cost us more than having a flat roof, but honestly for the better aesthetic and a happy neighbour I think it will be worth the increased cost.

I have been watching back episodes of ‘Your Home Made Perfect’ on I-player this week and was shocked at one of the extensions (series 3, episode 5) they built on a house next to an angled/corner terrace which literally cut straight across the rear window and door of the house next to them. I know terraces are crammed in, so it must be hard to avoid affecting your neighbours at all, but I’m not sure I would have been able to go ahead with the design if it negatively affected my neighbours that much.

Having replaced a flat roof in the past, I think the money you spend now will save you money in the long run!