Party wall dilemma - please tell me what to do!

PartyWallDilemma · 2023-03-01T15:00:02+00:00

Adjoining house has been bought by the daughter of a local builder and her young family. I have now met both the daughter and her dad and they seem very pleasant. His building firm is well known locally for being reputable; he will be doing the refurbishment for her. We had horrible neighbours before who complained about everything, the final straw being our recent kitchen extension - so I am very pleased to have a clean slate and really, really want to keep things on good terms this time. They want to remove the chimney breasts on their side party wall - fine with me, previous owners of our house did the same on ours - but I feel they are slightly pressuring me to sign the party wall agreement without requesting a surveyor - "We know what we are doing - don't worry, we will put right any damage immediately" etc. I assume they don't want the extra expense of paying for a surveyor to represent us (likely to be £1000+) but our house is completely immaculate after all our own recent work and I would be so pissed off to end up with a load of cracks -or worse - after months of work and thousands of pounds spent on our side. What would you do? Insist on an expensive surveyor and risk alienating them weeks after they've moved in? Or just sign it and let them do what they want, on the understanding they'll put any damage right after they have finished?

ChristinaRussell · 01/03/2023 15:11

I can't give any legal advice, but the house next door to us underwent a radical renovation taking many months. We had a party wall agreement and a surveyor - employed by the neighbour - came round and took lots of photos of the party wall from our side. He didn't really have much input after that (that we were aware of anyway). Next door removed their chimney breasts and this caused massive cracks on our side (I could literally see the crack opening up and spreading in real time as they hammered away next door). Once they were plastering & decorating they came to us and repaired it. It was a massive upheaval though as I had to move everything out of the way and I couldn't use that room for days while the plaster dried.
So, be prepared for your lovely walls to need repairing (sorry!)
I would have thought that the PWA is a legally binding document and they have to make good in any case? Take lots of before photos, is my advice.

Original poster

PartyWallDilemma · 01/03/2023 15:20

Oh no! Is this likely?
I can't bear the idea of cracks all down my lovely pristine walls 😭

OP posts:

ChristinaRussell · 01/03/2023 15:29

PartyWallDilemma · 01/03/2023 15:20

Oh no! Is this likely?
I can't bear the idea of cracks all down my lovely pristine walls 😭

Not only am I not a lawyer, I'm not a surveyor either 😄I'm just saying it's a possibility. Expect the worst and you might be pleasantly surprised!

(We still have our chimney breasts, and the plaster was quite old, so if you have a new RSJ and brickwork & plaster it might be more robust?)

TwigTheWonderKid · 01/03/2023 15:37

I wonder what the legal position is re your mortgage company and/ or your buildings insurance? i.e even if you were personally happy to go ahead without a surveyor do you have any kind of legal duty to insist on a surveyor to protect them? If that's the case, you can insist on surveyor and blame someone else. If not, then if they are as nice and reputable as you say, they would totally understand if you wanted to protect your property and do it by the book.

Original poster

PartyWallDilemma · 01/03/2023 15:55

TwigTheWonderKid · 01/03/2023 15:37

I wonder what the legal position is re your mortgage company and/ or your buildings insurance? i.e even if you were personally happy to go ahead without a surveyor do you have any kind of legal duty to insist on a surveyor to protect them? If that's the case, you can insist on surveyor and blame someone else. If not, then if they are as nice and reputable as you say, they would totally understand if you wanted to protect your property and do it by the book.

This is a good point @TwigTheWonderKid as this house was subject to a minor subsidence claim before we came here. I will follow that up with our insurers.

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PaulaPaola · 02/03/2023 21:19

Don't feel guilty; you are not just protecting your interests, you are also protecting theirs.
If they're in the building game they will know about, and have budgeted for, the potential extra cost.

ACynicalDad · 03/03/2023 07:45

We drew a pwa up ourselves and our neigbours signed it and then when they had work done we signed a similar document. All the surveyor does is takes photos, the agreement says if there is a problem they will rectify it. Neither of us caused the other cracks, but we did dislodge something inside their chimney and needed to get someone to clear it. You can't stop the work so if there are going to be cracks there are going to be cracks, the question is will they repair them. I suspect from what you're saying they will and a load of photos is plenty.

screamingj · 03/03/2023 08:23

We didn't bother with a pwa with our neighbours. We went round, told them what we were doing & made a promise we would remedy any issues to their satisfaction immediately. We shook hands on it. We've both lived here 30yrs. In the end there was no effect whatsoever so no remedy needed. But we absolutely would have sorted it fast if there had been.

Conversely another neighbour down the road watched as long cracks appeared in her son's room whilst her neighbours removed a chimney and put steels in . But they didn't even have planning permission for the work.

Sanch1 · 03/03/2023 13:22

I'm a surveyor. All I would do is come and take lots of record photos of the party wall from your side, put them in a schedule and have both parties sign them as an agreed record of the condition of the walls prior to work commencing. You may end up with cracks, surveyor or not is not going to change that, but with a photo schedule you can show what the original condition was. You and your neighbour could do this together?

MatchesinEyes23 · 03/03/2023 13:28

If you have doubts now, get it done before the work starts. We recently built an extension with a reputable builder - I had a PWA and plans etc and spoke it through with the neighbour who signed it. Two months into the project they decided they weren't happy with what was being done and asked for a surveyor (to which I politely declined to pay for). The foundations and walls had gone up - I wasn't changing anything now!
So if you're not sure, get the survey done now - it will be much harder to bring up any issues mid-way through the project.
If her dad is a reputable builder, he'll have worked with surveyors many times and may even be able to get a cheap recommendation for you.

minipie · 03/03/2023 13:32

A middle position is to agree to a single joint surveyor but it needs to be one you choose. (Or you put forward 3 and they choose from that list).

This is cheaper for them than each side having their own surveyor but much less risky for you than agreeing to have no surveyor.

This middle option is what I would do, and this is what our nice neighbours agreed to when we had building works. We wouldn’t have expected them to agree to no surveyor at all.

minipie · 03/03/2023 13:33

We've both lived here 30yrs.

That’s very different from new neighbours you’ve just met.

Original poster

PartyWallDilemma · 03/03/2023 16:14

@Sanch1 - as a surveyor, do you even look at the work that is to be done and perhaps suggest mitigations? - or do you merely take a condition survey and draw up the legal bits?

OP posts:

MiniCooperLover · 03/03/2023 19:46

They know full well what they are doing by pressuring you. If you don't don't go down the full party wall route you'll struggle to get them to pay to fix anything if it goes wrong.

SwedishEdith · 03/03/2023 21:21

MatchesinEyes23 · 03/03/2023 13:28

If you have doubts now, get it done before the work starts. We recently built an extension with a reputable builder - I had a PWA and plans etc and spoke it through with the neighbour who signed it. Two months into the project they decided they weren't happy with what was being done and asked for a surveyor (to which I politely declined to pay for). The foundations and walls had gone up - I wasn't changing anything now!
So if you're not sure, get the survey done now - it will be much harder to bring up any issues mid-way through the project.
If her dad is a reputable builder, he'll have worked with surveyors many times and may even be able to get a cheap recommendation for you.

Pretty sure that as soon as your foundations have started to be dug, it's too late for any PWA anyway. The moment's gone and nothing can be applied retrospectively.

Twinedpeaks · 03/03/2023 21:28

screamingj · 03/03/2023 08:23

We didn't bother with a pwa with our neighbours. We went round, told them what we were doing & made a promise we would remedy any issues to their satisfaction immediately. We shook hands on it. We've both lived here 30yrs. In the end there was no effect whatsoever so no remedy needed. But we absolutely would have sorted it fast if there had been.

Conversely another neighbour down the road watched as long cracks appeared in her son's room whilst her neighbours removed a chimney and put steels in . But they didn't even have planning permission for the work.

How did you get round the fact it's a legal requirement?

TizerorFizz · 03/03/2023 23:29

There’s a lot of rubbish on this thread! You should have a PWA. Anyone who accepts a home drawn up one without objecting to it, then getting their own surveyor, or structural engineer is an idiot. And as for surveyors just taking photos! One really wonders if they are qualified!

If you receive a PWA object to it! That’s your legal right. You then appoint your own fully qualified surveyor (or engineer if structural issues are part of the build) to look after your interests at their expense. Yes, they take photos but you can agree working hours, reinstatement requirements, structural design standards that affect you, quality of work required for anything that affects your house and above all, someone who can arbitrate for you. You agree access and “house rules” too. So it’s understood by both sides that you are not a mug!

Railwayroad · 04/03/2023 06:26

End of the day the work will get done regardless. We had a surveyor for a PWA. He was paid a lot of money for not very much. Don’t think it was needed in retrospect. If the builder is reputable they will put right any problems.

custardbear · 04/03/2023 06:34

We're detached but the people building a new apartment complex next to us paid for our surveyor. I didn't see the point as it was only our fence but did it anyway, but they paid. I seem to recall it was over £1k and that was 5 years ago

MarieG10 · 04/03/2023 06:41

The reality is that houses are built up and the structural support out in place and built in top of. Removing chimney breasts or knocking out the back of houses, replacing them with RSJs means that it is inevitable there will be some movement, if not immediately, then over time as it settles. So yes, sorry expect some cracking occurring of at least 1-3 mm and a little more over time as it settles

We have done both before in various houses and always had some settlement. Hence getting a surveyor and lots and lots and lots of photos protects your interests, especially over time. Work like that can take a year if two to settle worse case scenario

lightlypoached · 04/03/2023 08:11

We've never gone the survey route.

Get photos taken of your side before the works and get written agreement (in the Agreement itself) that they will repair any damage.

Main thing with chimney breast removal is either to get proper steels or for the stack to be taken out too.

Sanch1 · 04/03/2023 09:14

TizerorFizz · 03/03/2023 23:29

There’s a lot of rubbish on this thread! You should have a PWA. Anyone who accepts a home drawn up one without objecting to it, then getting their own surveyor, or structural engineer is an idiot. And as for surveyors just taking photos! One really wonders if they are qualified!

If you receive a PWA object to it! That’s your legal right. You then appoint your own fully qualified surveyor (or engineer if structural issues are part of the build) to look after your interests at their expense. Yes, they take photos but you can agree working hours, reinstatement requirements, structural design standards that affect you, quality of work required for anything that affects your house and above all, someone who can arbitrate for you. You agree access and “house rules” too. So it’s understood by both sides that you are not a mug!

Very qualified thank you! I was trying to keep it to a basic level. @PartyWallDilemma yes I would consider the plans, the contractor's proposal for carrying out the works and write any special processes or method I thought necesssry into the award. However, I also wrote my reply taking into account your desire to stay amicable and friendly with your neighbours so suggested a way to potentially do that. Insist on the proper process if it would keep your mind at ease.

gogohmm · 04/03/2023 09:19

Whilst a legal document is peace of mind most renovations don't have them and a good relationship with your neighbour and a promise to fix anything that goes wrong is possibly better than the legal document is that is rarely enforceable and costly to do so through the courts.

State fine but could you have a letter agreeing to fix any cracks etc that are caused by the work by them to the standard it is now and get dated photographs signed off by them showing no damage

TizerorFizz · 04/03/2023 09:46

Most renovations where they affect a party wall do have an agreement unless the home owner or builder is a cowboy.

Of course some people try it on, as DM’s neighbour did, but if they are working within 3 m of the boundary you have a PWA. DM’s neighbours asked for access to build their extension. We agreed that wasn’t going to happen to an elderly lady. They built entirely from their own side. DM objected to their PWA and got her own. Perfectly friendly with neighbours. They were young but her DF was the builder and he said they didn’t need one. They did.

So of course you can allow access, have no repairs agreed in writing by the agreement to supposedly keep the peace, but in reality an agreement that everyone understands is better at keeping the peace.