I am going to tear my fucking hair out over a water leak in my kitchen

[screamingj]

5 years ago we noticed a wet patch on the kitchen ceiling. We monitored it, ummed and ahhed a bit, got builders in to look at it and they all pronounced it was the (4yo) flat roof. So we got the original roofer to look at it. Many fixings later, no change and we lost faith in the company. The leak carried on. New builder came and lifted the floor boards, saw nothing. Went outside and pronounced the flat roof was 'not fit for purpose and he put a new roof on.

The leak carried on, so we got builder no.3 in and they lifted a large area of floor above the kitchen. There are 5 pipes close together that sit exactly behind the wet ceiling (which unhelpfully is exactly in line with the decorative cornicing). BUT when we looked very closely at these pipes there was no evidence of any water leak whatsoever. The pipes were all bone dry. We kept the floor open for 3 months to inspect but never saw any sign of wetness. The floor was closed again.

I've just noticed the wet patch is back again and it's about 18' wide so quite a size! I HAVE NO BLOODY IDEA WHAT TO DO.

The unfortunate issue is that this area is really complicated. It's at the original corner of the house (now held up with steel). It has a stepped flat roof just to the side of it. A giant hall window above the flat roof, and internally it's a matrix of walls & joins.

What should I do next? I don't think the insurance will touch it as it's been going on for years and would probably be classed as maintenance.. We've forked out a fortune so far and all for nothing. I'm at my wits end because we going to have to find money we don't have to pull it all apart again.

Is there such a thing as a professional leak detection company? The only way I can think of them finding the leak is to pull down the kitchen ceiling and the floor above & probably take the new roof off too.

Yes! We had a leak last year and used a company called ADI. They managed to isolate it to a failed length of piping in the concrete slab, cut up just 3 tiles and repaired it. The actual leak itself was showing up in a different, adjacent room.

They are expensive (about £700) but they stay all day, repair at the same time, and use clever equipment to isolate the leak so they don’t rip up anything they don’t have to. It was worth our time/money as the builders we consulted really just wanted to start ripping up boxing and tiles left, right and centre.

www.adileakdetection.co.uk

This was them. A plumber I consulted on the leak recommended them to us.

Have you tried the leak detection tablets, they are like plague tablets for your teeth! But blue, some water companies send them out for free, when the floorboards are lifted you might be able to trace it.

Have you checked the sealant on the window above?

The window has been checked numerous times and looks perfect. It's wood, not pvc for what that's worth.

I've been up on the roof myself, micro-inspecting it each time but there's nothing to see, it looks flawless.

Had ADI too. Thankfully through insurance but they are good. Found a leak showing up in the toilet which was from the kitchen two rooms away?! 🙄

Is there a bathroom or shower nearby?
could the leak be travelling down to that area?
As we had a leak showing in hall roof but it was the sealant in the shower was letting water through but it was travelling and only showing up away from the bathroom.

There is a bathroom. The thing is, we had the floor lifted up for 3 months and we couldn't see any water whatsoever. It's like the coving is getting wet yet the rear of it is dry?

The bathroom is not close by though

You need @PigletJohn

What is above the ceiling? You mentioned a roof, a floor, and a bathroom.

Is there a chimney or a flue for the heating? As we also had water coming in the flue and then travelling down.
is the pipes wet? Can you feel along the pipes at all?
is the pointing on the outside walls all in tact?
Have you had any rain recently? As if no rain then would rule out water getting in from the outside so water must be coming from internally. ( if that makes sense)

They use infrared cameras to trace leaks by detecting subtle temperature variations. I can't believe no one recommended you having this done before all the expensive remediation work. Water can move in absolutely bizarre ways and pinpointing where it has started is tricky.

Are you sure it's a leak, when we had our loft conversion done the following winter we developed a few patches on the ceiling. I was convinced it was a leak but it was actually condensation between the ceiling/roof/steels. It only appeared when it first became cold outside and we put the heating on, builder came out and added more roof vents.

To my eye the patches looked like a leak, one of them was dripping slightly but it definitely was condensation.

Condensation on the pipes , when you had it open for months air could get around them , I’m guessing it drips on the ceiling and makes a wet patch ?

it might not, but it’s a possibility ?

@PigletJohn @Fitbachick

The pipes were bone dry & along the length that was reachable (6inches in either direction). No signs of water marking on them. No flue nearby. The outside is rendered and in good condition.

We did have some rain, not loads recently. The area of damp is about 18 inches in from the external wall.

I'm going to try and draw a diagram. Something I haven't tried before because the whole area is a nightmare of levels.

On TikTok there's leak detectors, the videos are amazing!

I found some photos I took when the floor was up & ceiling removed! I was wrong about the pipes position, they are close to the outside wall, not that this necessarily makes the roof the culprit.

In the close up of the pipes, I indicated the area of damp with yellow lines, it's lower inside the cavity.

On the roof pic I've marked the approx position of the internal wall where the pipes are.

What you might not be able to tell from the pipes picture is that they're actually 3-way joints. They go up the wall, horizontal towards the photographer and also down to the ground to supply water & heating for the ground floor

I hate the sunken roof. When funds allow and I replace the window, I think I'll raise the sill by a few courses of bricks.

It has insufficient slope for good run-off

On the pipes are white marks, probably dried limescale from leaking water, and green marks, probably copper corrosion from leaking water. It's a pity everything is covered up now. I'd be interested in cutting a hatch in the wet ceiling big enough to get your head and hands through to feel and look. Plasterboard is fairly easy to patch and redecorate, and if it has been persistently damp, probably needs to be cut out and replaced.

The trouble with marks on pipes is you can't tell if they're old or current. I like to polish them off with a green pan scourer. Then, if they come back, they are very noticeable and you know they're live. Hot pipes often evaporate leaks away to dry, and you only see water when they're cold, but the marks remain. Water can run down or along a pipe before it drips off, so the source can be elsewhere.

Ahh, that's telling @PigletJohn I thought the verdigris was from the soldering process.. The white is where I've painted the pipes. The floor'll have to come up again anyway, so I can sand the verdigris off as you suggest. There is no hint of discolouration to the (emulsion) paint on the pipes, though I guess it's possible a dribble could've run down the back of them (they're held off the wall by clips)