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DPC Keeps Failing

47 replies

pg1984 · 25/02/2023 20:15

Hi,
I am hoping somebody will be able to help me. I was a naive first time buyer and bought a ground floor flat about nine years ago which I knew had damp issues but I thought they would be easy to fix. I called out Kenwood and proten for quotes and ended up going with proten and got a course of DPC done on an external wall with a 20 year guarantee in 2014.

After four years I noticed salts and called them back and they redid the wall but instead of 1.2 m they replastered around 50 cm , four years later it looks like it has failed again as i can see salts, please look at pictures attached I'm not sure why it keeps on failing? Or whether DPC was the answer in the first place.

I am having sleepless nights worried about what it could be and why it keeps failing and am feeling a bit in despair at the damage as i cannot afford to keep redecorating etc and i now have tenants in there and am worried that they may leave...

DPC Keeps Failing
OP posts:
PigletJohn · 25/02/2023 20:53

Do you mean you paid for silicone Injections?

Let's see if we can work out where the water is coming from. Did the contractors try to do that?

How old is the building?

Is the floor beside the damp patch concrete?

Is the floor wet?

Where are the water-containing rooms such as kitchens and bathrooms?

What is on the other side of the wet wall? Post pics please. All the way down to ground level and showing all the pipes, drains and manholes. And all the way up to the gutter, showing any pipes above.

Look for the building's actual DPC. Typically a thin black horizontal line in the mortar bed of the brickwork nine inches above where ground level used to be when the wall was built.

pg1984 · 25/02/2023 21:47

Thank you so much PigletJohn for replying - i have been watching your amazing responses to other people and hoped you may reply. Please find responses as best as possible to questions:

Do you mean you paid for silicone Injections? - yes I paid for a chemical DPC and replastering from Proten in 2014 (failed twice since)

Let's see if we can work out where the water is coming from. Did the contractors try to do that? No they never tried to do that they gave me a free survey and told me it was rising damp

How old is the building? 1890, but I also have an extension which I think was done in 1970 so I am not sure whether this wall is part of the extension

Is the floor beside the damp patch concrete? yes concrete

Is the floor wet? no the floor is not wet

Where are the water-containing rooms such as kitchens and bathrooms? Quite far away, have tried to attach a floor plan, the wall i am referring to is to the bottom of the picture although the dotted lines also had chemical dpc

What is on the other side of the wet wall? Post pics please. All the way down to ground level and showing all the pipes, drains and manholes. And all the way up to the gutter, showing any pipes above. - as i am not near the flat as its rented i have tried to send what picture i do have...someones chest is in front of the wall - mine is a leasehold flat

Thank you again so much

DPC Keeps Failing
DPC Keeps Failing
DPC Keeps Failing
OP posts:
PigletJohn · 26/02/2023 01:23

The iron pipe next to the doorstep is leaking. I think it is probably cracked in the ground. Is it a soil pipe?

When you get the chance, take some more pics around it. Look particularly for signs of cracked or sunken ground or paving, and patching up of the concrete. Look for a manhole cover between that pipe and the road. The ground level or paving against the house may gave been raised since it was built.

The bottom of the iron pipe probably originally went into a glazed clay (like an old brown teapot) socket at about ground level. It is normal for these to be broken.

You can see a patch of damp moss. Look also for any surprisingly vigorous weeds or plants. Wild tomato plants are a special indicator.

pg1984 · 26/02/2023 18:39

@PigletJohn Thank you so much for your incredible reply. I am not sure if the pipe is soil but I can check it when I go in two weeks time and I can take lots more pictures then.

I can see there is a manhole in the picture underneath the next doors outdoor caret would that be relevant?

Interestingly when I bought the flat nine years ago, there was a tide Mark, like a brown mark in the middle of the wall and the mortgage survey had mentioned it may be because of the metal staircase on the outside wall which is a fire exit nailed into my wall. I don't recall there being any salts at the bottom of the wall at the time, but since I have had my DPC done twice on this wall i am getting these salts at the bottom.

  • I will send some more pictures in a couple of weeks and hopefully that will shed some more light but if the damp proofing company are offering to come back out because of the guarantee, do you think it's not worth doing another replastering? And instead it is maybe some sort of leak somewhere?
  • If this part of the flat is an extension and it was done quite cheaply would it still have a DPC done and that should be somewhere?
  • I am hoping to send across more pictures but because I don't go to the flat that often I am thinking to get an independent dump surveyor to come out and have a look at everything I think they cost around £400, would you recommend that or a chartered building surveyor which is much more expensive, it is only a small one bedroom flat and I'm just worried about finances regarding this given I have recently lost my job? Would you have any recommendations at all on this or any names?

Thank you so much once again for your kindness...

OP posts:
C4tastrophe · 26/02/2023 19:21

The new extension will definitely have a dpc.
You say you’re a first time buyer but you have let it out?
Is this damp not covered by the buildings insurance? If you are a leaseholder why isn’t the building owner fixing this, or it coming out of the sink fund?

Imjustbrowsing · 26/02/2023 19:58

The picture is not a newer extension but an original solid brick wall. An easy way to tell in 99% of cases is that original 9inch solid brick walls have a pattern that looks like “full brick, half brick, full brick”
A normal cavity wall just looks like “brick, brick, brick”.

The drainpipe is the obvious place to investigate but I would also look into penetrating damp on that wall.

In solid brick wall construction, moisture can be a problem when trapped in the wall as no cavity, the room needs to be ventilated regularly which some people do not do.

PigletJohn · 26/02/2023 20:34

"Damp consultants" are often thinly disguised Silicon Injection Salesmen. As you have noticed, injections do not repair building defects. Nor does plaster though it may cover them up for a while. An experienced local surveyor from the district will be more trustworthy. A wrinkly local builder will have seen houses just like yours, and, if retired, may have no axe to grind.

Most likely the source of your damp is a building defect that occurred after the house was built. Even though it is old enough that it might have been built without a DPC, the original builders probably knew what they were doing. In London, DPC have been compulsory since 1875, though some of the early ones were not very good and other towns may be later.

Plumbing leaks are a common source of damp, so are raised ground levels paving or earth against the wall. I don't know if the house would originally have been built with concrete floors. Except in kitchens and sculleries, suspended wooden floors with a ventilated void or a cellar beneath are more common, but an older house will reflect local practice.

See if there is a local "Historic Wandsworth" or "Regency Brighton" sort of local residents society. With luck it will include people interested in older buildings in your area with experience of their defects and remedies.

What is the natural brick colour? Brick walls are not usually painted unless to hide something.

PigletJohn · 26/02/2023 20:41

P.s.

If the house was built in 1890, a later extension could be any age going back to 1891, so may not be modern.

I saw mention of a flat roof on one of the diagrams, this is typical of an extension and not encouraging.

pg1984 · 26/02/2023 21:49

@C4tastrophe i bought the flat 9 years as a FTB - moved out after 4 years due to marriage and have rented it since then.
I did ask the managing agent to fix this 9 years when i bought it, but they said no they are not sorting it and I didn't challenge them as I was too scared but now I can see that they should've sorted this, I have checked my lease and they are responsible for structural issues but I'm not sure how to get them to do anything unless I do all of the investigation and give them clear actions

it would then come out of the sinking fund...

OP posts:
pg1984 · 26/02/2023 21:53

@PigletJohn when you say the flat roof is not encouraging, what does this mean? thank you so much

OP posts:
PigletJohn · 26/02/2023 22:41

Cheap to build

Go wrong a lot

Surplus2requirements · 27/02/2023 01:46

Rising damp is a potential issue but is far less common than specialist companies would have you believe. Its a scam that is reaching epidemic proportions in the UK.

Almost all of damp issues in solid wall construction are caused by damp penetration rather than rising damp.

These walls were built to breathe and have good ventilation.

Waterproof paints and treatments prevent the wall from breathing and concentrate damp in particular areas inside.

As @PigletJohn says typical areas include soil pipes as well as wet areas caused by faulty guttering or practically anything that pierces the outer skin such as cut nails driven into the wall for pipe fixings, hanging flower baskets or anything else that provides a track for water to enter the wall that has nowhere to escape other than inside.

The good news is apart from decorative no real damage is being caused.

pg1984 · 27/02/2023 21:28

@PigletJohn

Thank you for your advice.

I am not sure what the original brick colour is as the whole house is painted white for decoration I assume...

Thank you for the idea of contacting the local residents association, I have managed to locate one and I have emailed them today so I am hoping for a response.

I have been searching on line for independent damp surveyors for my area , reviews etc and have shortlisted Peter Mullan and Damp Surveys ltd - the latter one i cant get hold of easily though to even have a quick chat so not sure who to proceed with or if there was anyone else better.

Wondering if anyone has any suggestions? thank you in advance

OP posts:
pg1984 · 12/03/2023 21:30

Hi @PigletJohn . Hope you are well.

I just wanted to give you an update. I followed your amazing suggestions and managed to find a local residence Association which had a WhatsApp group. I joined the group and asked for a recommendation for a local builder. A name was provided of someone that does most of the houses on the road. I got him to come over free of charge and he had a look around the outside of the wall.

He picked up the same points as you regarding the stenchpipe being cracked, moss etc and suggested to make modifications around this etc and also found a small underneath the brickwork in the exact location where the paint is flaking internally.

I just was curious, if I had a DPC and replastering done from pretend to block out moisture, even though this sounds like now penetrating damp rather than rising damp how come my plaster is flaking if the DPC company had put one in to block moisture?

Secondly, the builder can repair my inside wall but this would render my 20 year guarantee as invalid for this and the 3 other walls DPCed by the DPC company. What should I do?

Thank you again for your invaluable advice.

OP posts:
PigletJohn · 13/03/2023 02:47

"found a small underneath the brickwork in the exact location where the paint is flaking internally."

A small what? Hole? Pipe?

Start by repairing the drain and any other building defects you can find. Most likely the clay pipe and bend are cracked in the ground and need to be dug out and renewed. Trying to patch up with mortar and concrete from the top will not repair it.

Look for any original slate DPC. It might not exist in a hundred-year-old wall, or it might be hidden by render or raised paving.

Render and plaster will not do any good so don't waste any more time and money on them. If and when you have solved the defects and the wall dries out, you can redecorate them.

Try not to call chemical injections a DPC.

pg1984 · 20/03/2023 20:43

@PigletJohn thank you so much. Would a builder be able to check all the above points regarding the clay pipes/bend etc?

The local builder that I called recommended the following:

take out section of concrete around stench pipe and back wall, fit new pipe onto overflow and run to drain and then fill up and reconcrete. Followed by painting damp course with a oil based bitchumen sealer

does this sound okay?

thanks so much

OP posts:
PigletJohn · 20/03/2023 22:28

I strongly recommend digging up and replacing the upper part of that underground clay pipe, down to the bend and the first joint, or, if not, excavating in order to inspect it and verify that it is not cracked or leaking at the bend (it probably is). Luckily, modern diamond cutters can cut clay pipe neatly for a new joint, without trying to patch it with concrete.

Most of the work will be in breaking out the concrete without causing additional damage to the clay pipe, but the hole will need to be big enough to stand in. Try to look down the hole to see how wet it is, and if there are bright red (sewage-eating) worms. It is best to dig out the wet mud and fill with shingle or crushed stone, which allows slight movement without cracking. You can top it with concrete, or slabs cut to fit (which will be easier to lift if you ever need to get at the drain again).

If you want to run waste pipes into the soil pipe, you could add a plastic gully with trap. This is little extra effort if done at the same time.

I don't favour using bitumen (sp.) paint on a wall. it will not stop water absorbed from below, and it will prevent evaporation from the surface, which helps it to dry. I think you will probably find the wet brickwork has perished and missing mortar, this can be hosed clean, and re-packed with mortar. You can use cement mortar underground, it is more durable, but if he feels it should have matching lime mortar, I won't argue.

An old wall built with lime mortar and soft bricks should not have cement render above the ground as it needs to "breathe" (lose damp by evaporation) which is also why it should not be bitumened.

Try not to be downhearted if the builder says you are being too finicky.

PigletJohn · 20/03/2023 22:35

Where is this overflow you mentioned?

Is it the "small?"

PigletJohn · 20/03/2023 23:18

Having looked again at the photos, I see there appears to be a manhole cover practically next to the soil pipe. It's likely the pipe connects into it, in which case it might be simplest just to run a new plastic pipe, and pull out the old clay. This would remove any cracked parts and need to joint new onto old.

Have a good look into the hole and the pit because there might be other breaks, gaps or faults not visible yet. You might like to get a hosepipe handy for washing away any detritus. Pits are built with a special brick bond and not often cracked.

pg1984 · 21/03/2023 20:05

@PigletJohn Thank you much once again for your incredible insights.

So just to confirm instead of excavating and digging concrete, we should now focus on lifting the manhole and inspecting the pipework within there and focusing looking into this hole once the manhole is lifted?

If so - i will get my builder to focus on this.

Thank you again PigletJohn

OP posts:
PigletJohn · 21/03/2023 20:11

I think you do need to remove or replace the leaking pipe, so it will still be necessary to break the concrete and dig it out, and put in a new one.

Don't just try to patch up the top of it. Old glazed clay pipes are notoriously cracked and leaking.

As well as that, see what else you find in the manhole. It may change the approach.

RollerCoaster2020 · 21/03/2023 21:34

PigletJohn · 21/03/2023 20:11

I think you do need to remove or replace the leaking pipe, so it will still be necessary to break the concrete and dig it out, and put in a new one.

Don't just try to patch up the top of it. Old glazed clay pipes are notoriously cracked and leaking.

As well as that, see what else you find in the manhole. It may change the approach.

That is so Sexist, Shouldn't it be "personhole" rather than "manhole" 😊

PigletJohn · 21/03/2023 23:37

That's very speciesist.

Surplus2requirements · 21/03/2023 23:41

Inspection chamber works for everyone

Deathbyfluffy · 21/03/2023 23:50

RollerCoaster2020 · 21/03/2023 21:34

That is so Sexist, Shouldn't it be "personhole" rather than "manhole" 😊

Hoping this is a joke, but in 2023 you never know 😆