Fittings and fixtures list - normal or over the top?

[trrk]

We are clueless first time buyers and just received the fittings and fixtures list for the house we are buying. Lots of stuff is excluded such as:

Fitted extractor hood and oven.
Most light fixtures.
Shower fitting for bath.
Bathroom cabinet.
Toilet roll holder.
Bathroom mirror.
Display cabinet doors (probably don't want them but just weird to specify the doors?).

How normal is this list? Some things are easy to replace like a toilet roll holder but seems petty to remove them. I had expected things like the bathroom cabinet and shower fitting and fitted things like the extractor hood and oven to be included but I guess we were just naive. Other things are just weird like specifying display cabinet doors separately (probably don't want these anyway?).

How normal is this list? Should we ask for damages from removing the fittings to be repaired or is this up to us? There are also a lot of wall mounted shelves they are removing. Are we expected to repair the walls after this or should we ask them to? What state should we ask the to leave the light fixtures in?

About half that list is unusual in my experience. It's up to you whether you want to go ahead on that basis. Removing something like the extractor could wreck the kitchen.

That’s really weird and not usual. They’d need to finish and re plaster / paint to make good any damage caused by removal but deciding on what standard of repair is sufficient and having enough time to inspect between removal and completion would be hard. My guess is they’re trying to sell things to you in top of the price (or they’re idiots and have filled the form in wrong). Who is that emotionally attached to a loo roll holder?!

Quite unusual. Usually a sale includes anything that would be left in the house if you turned it upside down and shook it. When we last bought a house the vendors took some wall lights that were a wedding gift but replaced them. They told us in advance so we offered to buy some we liked and then they arranged for them to be fitted.

I would say not normal. When we bought our last house they excluded the carpets and then asked us to pay extra to keep them. We just said no, if they wanted the hassle of taking them all up they could go ahead- they left them. I would say they are being unreasonable.

Mirror, light fittings and toilet roll holder normally excluded. They need to leave you working lights however so specify that in your response (usually a bulb on a flex).

Bathroom cabinet, cabinet doors - usually left but not always. If they are affixed and can’t be moved you’d reasonably expect them to stay and I would ask for replacement cabinet doors.

Extractor hood and oven - if the oven is a freestanding range cooker then usually they’re taken but if it’s your normal under counter/wall fitted oven then it should be left. The extractor fan must be left as it’s fixed and plumbed in. If they insist on taking them, ask for replacements to be fitted prior to exchange.

Some of that list is reasonable some really weird!
I think they're trying to get more money out of you rather than take items they're attached to.
The extractor and display doors are curious ones! Are they unusual/bespoke doors in some way?

I think it’s fairly normal to take away light fittings which are your own/expensive (so if you have a chandelier in the dining room you shouldn’t be expected to leave it) providing they are replaced with a working light fitting with bulb before the move. But no it’s really not normal to take the shower/extractor etc!

This. The extractor is a weird one but if the doors are unusual, that might make sense.

I excluded a few things from my sale that you’d normally expect included (a set of cupboard doors, a few door handles and some light fittings) but they were vintage / retro items - some now very valuable - that I’d collected over the years. I figured they’re not to everyone’s taste and would be ripped out anyway and replaced with more modern things. My buyer purchased some of the light fittings, and everything else that I took I replaced at my expense with good quality neutral items.

Thanks for the response! Some of the details are hard to remember as we haven't been able to go back since the initial viewing which was months ago but I don't remember anything special about the lights, curtain rails (also excluded) and cabinet doors (the excluded ones are in the living and dining room (where it says "shelves included, doors excluded").

The oven is a normal under the counter one as far as I remember (see the photo below). Should we ask them to replace the extractor? The hob is being left. All three are ticked as "fixed" on the form so not free standing.

There's no price listed for any item on the form. If they want money for items will they let us know or are they expecting us to offer to buy stuff?

We still want to go ahead with the sale but it's just a lot more to sort out fairly quickly and additional cost we weren't expecting. Does any of this justify asking for a discount? We offered asking price. The lisiting did say "Unless specifically mentioned in these particulars all fixtures and fittings are expressly excluded from the sale of the freehold interest" but I assumed this was just standard estate agent text. The shower was mentioned in the text but I guess it's not super expenive to replace anyway.

Also check what is written in the estate agent particulars. Ours said 'kitchen with range oven, extractor hood etc' and then the sellers said they were taking the oven if we didn't exchange in the next week etc etc. Their estate agents told them they were being ridiculous. I may be wrong but if it's in the particulars they should be leaving it. Extractor fan should def be left. I would have thought the shower should be as well.
Curtain rails etc can be taken but they will need to fill in the holes etc. I would just say you don't want them or offer a nominal amount. Chances are they may leave them anyway.

Just re- read you post! Seems strange to put that wording on the listing!

Take advice from your solicitor about how to deal. I would ask for all tiling / walls to be made good and finished to a reasonable standard and fittings (like pipework/ wiring) made safe and left in place for immediate reinstallment of replacements. Don’t underestimate what a ball ache it can be to replace - the shower / loo roll holder will leave holes in multiple tiles - are you realistically going to be able to find replacements that have exactly the same size/ distance fittings so that you’re not drilling more holes and leaving exposed holes etc etc. Also - waiting times for delivery.
solicitor will confirm whether your mortgage offer requirement includes the oven - vague bell that to count as liveable therefore complying with mortgage, the kitchen must be useable - hob may be sufficient but not sure.

They are just trying to extract more money from you. My vendors tried this and in the end they did not bother to remove the stuff as it would have been too much hassle.

Say that any removals need to be made good and that they need to facilitate an inspection between exchange and completion to check on this.

Thanks for the advice!

The text from the listing is "The kitchen has been fitted with a range of units and offers space / plumbing for various appliances....The bathroom has a wash hand basin, a bath with shower over and low-level W.C. "

So no specific mention of the oven but didn't realise an oven might be required for the mortgage. The shower is mentioned so it is reasonable to expect it to be left or replaced?

We will definately ask for an inspection between exchange and completion.

I think you need to revisit, take photos, then ask exactly what is being taken.

Don’t go for ‘making good’. It’s a weasel phrase and can be interpreted in a variety of ways. You need to specify in the contract exactly the repairs they are to do after removal of these items.

I would ask for another viewing, it isn’t unreasonable at this stage , and inspect it carefully, because this sort of behaviour is a bit bonkers ( said by some one who has bought and sold 20+ houses here and abroad). If you agree to the the basis of sale set out in the agents spec, you are basically agreeing to buying a shell. If they have excluded all f&f, they could take anything which is not in the standard form .

If you do go ahead ( and I would be thinking more than twice tbh) insist on a retention before completion. Then you can inspect the house before you hand over all the money, and make sure that the light fittings have been replaced, the shower has been capped and the hood a and oven properly removed by a qualified electrician, bill to be available.

Replacing the lights are pretty standard, and the curtain rails if they are especially nice. But the rest is bonkers , and I think you could be in for a very nasty shock (unless it is staggeringly cheap, of course).

I think mortgages only care about there being a kitchen sink, so in that respect it shouldn't be a problem. (Unless they propose taking that, too, which I wouldn't put past them given how OTT the rest of the list is!)

i think seeing as this sale seems to be not of normal standards eg fitted ovens and fans are normally included etc I would insist on a second viewing where you go round every light fitting and door and plug socket in the place and record what is being taken and what is being left.
I would also get it written in the contract what repairs they need to make and make it very specific eg filling in shelf screw holes and painting the whole room (rather than just painting the patch over the filled in hole). Any electrical items removed to be done by a certified electrician and all billls and cerification to be provided.
I think if you push back they may back down - doesnt look like a 'high spec' house where they may have spent £1000s on bespoke designer fittings!

Some of it is odd, yes. But we've sold several houses and have previously taken curtains (make by me with very specific fabrics suited to our style ie, Liberty etc), wooden poles (extra thick diameter with interesting finials, some vintage), door knobs, bathroom wall cabinets, mirrors, light fittings (all of which were antique). This was always made abundantly clear at time of viewing/offer. Poles, knobs and light fittings were replaced with something our buyers were happy with.

In the case of appliances, if not planning to include, the EA blurb will usually read 'space for range cooker' etc so again it should be obvious from the outset that these are not included.

We once had an issue with a Rayburn as we also had a Rangemaster 110 range cooker in the kitchen. Our buyer made their offer based on 'the inclusion of the Aga' which we took to mean the Rayburn which was obviously included as it supplied the central heating. Turned out they meant the range cooker as they'd mistakenly thought this was an Aga 6/4. We had planned to take this with us - and the EA hadn't worded the listing correctly which we'd failed to pick up on - but eventually we reached a compromise whereby the EA (who admitted it was their fault) gave us the cost of a second hand Rangemaster and we left ours for the new owners.

Some of that stuff is fairly normal - e.g. expensive light fittings have sometimes been removed and replaced by a standard flex in my experience.

Others are just weird though - e.g., leaving cabinets but taking the doors? Weird.

I'd be concerned about them planning to rip the extractor out of the kitchen. That could make a real mess and be difficult to fix to a good standard. Given that extract ventilation in a kitchen is a building regulations requirement I would tell them they need to source and professionally install a suitable replacement to your satisfaction. If you really wanted to lay it on thick, tell them removing it will leave the house without a BR compliant kitchen and if they don't leave or suitably replace it you'll need to consider whether they are rendering the house unmortgageable, or whether an indemnity policy is needed....

I do think that if lots of things are excluded that one would normally expect to form part of the sale, and if that wasn't made explicitly clear at the time of viewing/making your offer, it would be justifiable to consider reducing your offer (and I'm not one of life's offer-reducers, in the normal run of things).

Our estate agent really pushed us to put every last shelf and coat hook on the fixtures and fittings and attempt to charge the buyer for them. She actually said "I'll try to get my fee back for you in the F&F". It just caused a bad atmosphere by adding extra costs in when a price had already been agreed. I would not do that again.

I would just push back, make a very low/nominal offer for anything that should be included. IMO things that are hard wired in or essential parts of the house and would leave a gap if ripped out should be included - fitted oven, extractor fan, shower, built in cupboards.

Things just plugged in or screwed to the wall like bookcases, washing machines, bathroom cabinets could be removed as long as they are made good as if they were never there or wiring etc left safely for your own item to be refitted. Light fittings should be replaced with a professionally wired in ceiling rose (with electrical safety certificate). Essentially make it not worth their while.

Ripping the kitchen apart to take out oven and extractor fan should result in a lowered offer IMO.

It's also possible they have filled in the form wrong or been badly advised as PP said.

Thanks all for the advice. We will definately talk to our lawyer. Nohing was made clear at the time of viewing (the agent showing the house didn't know what was included) but of course we should have asked more questions. I wouldn't say it was a high spec house at all, just a standard 3 bed terraced house but it has been occupied by the owners for 30 years. I had assumed the kitchen with plumbing for various appliances just meant space for dishwasher, fridge washing machine etc rather than the oven and extractor but know to pay more attention if we are in this position again.

I'm reluctant to pull out now as it took a long time to find this place and our current rented house is unsuitable for various reasons so really keen to move. Our mortgage offer expires in April (the sellers took ages to find a house) so also concerned about causing too many delays. It's annoying as one of the things that attracted us about this house was that it was basically ready to move into with only a few minor things to do and now there are loads of things we will have to sort out before we can live comfortably in it. We have a baby who is still quite high needs so didn't want to be doing a lot of work on the house.

What is everyone's opinion on built in book shelves? There is a sizable one in the hallway by the door and a large one in a bedroom, both bespoke for the spaces. Should ew at least ask for these rooms to be repainted?

I would absolutely expect bespoke built in furniture to be included in the sale. Removing it will do nobody any good - it won't fit in a new property - and will leave loads of screw holes in the wall to be made good. Insist on professional redecorating.

Ideally I'd want the redecoration and making good to be done before exchange so you can see what you're committing to buy. Perhaps speak to the selling agent and tell them you're thinking this. It might motivate them to suggest the seller stops dicking about if they think their commission is at risk of being delayed or lost entirely!

We've just been through a bizarre and protracted negotiation over F&F with our sellers, who surprised us by saying they were removing the bins and door knocker (no offer to replace)! From your list the things that stand out as not normal to take are the extractor, oven, and shower. Do get your solicitor onto this if they aren't already, as others have said.

Re bookshelves, this was a point of contention in our case and it came down to the difference between bespoke and built-in. Our sellers had bookshelves made to fit a certain space. They were obviously fixed to the wall for safety. We assumed they would be included; sellers wanted £4k for them (this is what they paid - don't get me started!). We tried to argue that they were a fixture and should be included but bespoke is not the same as built-in where there is a frame etc. Lots of people said don't offer anything -- they will leave them as too much hassle to remove and make good. We offered £1k and they said they would remove them which they now have done, and filled in the holes. They offered to paint but we said no as we were planning to redecorate that room anyway.