Neighbours dormer

[Vanillacupcake33]

Just looking for some advice from people who's neighbours have got dormers or anyone who has experience of them. My neighbour has informed me they are having a dormer built in the summer. They are the type to cut corners with things and get the cheapest possible jobs done from anyone who will help cheaply or free. They said to me you'll receive a party wall agreement and it needs signing in 14 days. Now I'll sound abit stupid here but I have absolutly no idea about anything building wise and I am the type to say yes to most things without considering any problems that may occur so this is left to my dp. They've basically demanded me allow the extension, told us they will be building into the party wall etc. This is typical of my neighbours who never consider us in any way. They're type to want everything and moan if they don't get it. Now I wouldn't want to stop the conversation but would like to know what we need to consider. We've looked in our loft and the wall doesn't look the best if I'm honest im not even sure it'll hold a dormer. They have said their friend will come out to check the party wall but hes not a surveyor so surley thats not legal is it? If we appointed our own wall surveyor theyd have a fit if they had to pay. I've also read that dormers can cause leaks into the neighbours property is this true? They are quite loud neighbours too so would building a dormer make them louder? What happens if there's damage to our property and also would it devalue our property of a dormer was anchored to our wall? Sorry for all the questions, I just want to gather all info before agreeing to something. If we dont agree i can gurantee they would be even more a pain to live next door to so i need advice on what to look for or research so i can explain what worries us if anything. Thankyou

Thanks I'll definitely be sorting things out our side before they start. Judging by the prices you've mentioned I'm guessing they've had the cheapest possible quote or a friend maybe.
@20questions yes you're completely right and thought I do like being a people pleaser, it isn't always the right thing especially in these cases. I will make sure our home is protected. They clearly couldn't give a monkeys what we think it's basically this is what we're doing and this is how and you will agree. Never asked me if we have any concerns or anything like that. The worse part is if we were doing it they would make sure we wouldn't get it done full stop. That's the kind of people they are. We can do what we want but when others do it it's not ok. I try to stay on good terms and say things in a nice way to get my point across but maybe that's not enough with people like that.

That price is very, very low. I would think it should be more like 60-70K for all the roof work, new dormers, stairway, bathroom and windows. I would be very wary and get my own party wall surveyor and ring the council up for advice too.

If they are determined to do it and really unreasonable then you wont be able to stop it unless you physically prevent it. Not everybody is up for that. I think we will see this happening more and more because the odd loft extension or kitchen extension along any road has now turned into whole rows of them next to one another .

There was a absolutely no way that's the cost of a professional builder! I think it would be triple that for the work they want doing properly.

@Barilla On my council's website it stated that -
A. They wouldn't actively stop an extension in the process of being built i.e one that didn't have planning permission unless it affected more than just the immediate neighbours and
B. They don't get involved in boundary disputes..
Quite unbelievable really but they simply won't spend the money on legal action unless it's a massive contravention.
Having said that, they may give a statement e.g. No Planning Permission given..or..neighbour encroached boundary..etc which would probably help if person did decide to take offender to court.
Also I wonder if building control would step in regardless if person has concerns about safety issues like gas/electrics/structural concerns etc with neighbour's building work.
Wouldn't fancy getting blown up by my neighbour's dodgy gas installation!

@20questions BC choose not get involved in party wall issues either wherever possible. They can also issue regs compliance certificates to builds without planning permission if the owner applies to them.

If the owner gives them wrong info about what they are building and it gets signed off then they wash their hands of it.

Pass-the-buck culture is still well and alive in local town halls 🙁

@Vanillacupcake33

What should happen with a PWA is that they send one to you, and you reject it by saying you want your own surveyor. You choose one to act for you. Make sure they are qualified. If you have structural concerns, some structural engineers are party wall surveyors. They will need to see the plans and then meet with the other surveyor to agree the final agreement. This should also cover working hours, access to your land, description of the existing building, reinstatement of your building if any damage occurs and must include photos. Do not, under any circumstances, agree to anything prior to your surveyor being appointed. Ask your surveyor/engineer about the structural integrity of the building after it’s altered.

Contact planning officers about proposals.

This is a building requirement that is civil law. You would have to take your neighbours to court for breaches of the legal requirements. No one else will. So you have to get a good surveyor to look after your interests and your neighbours pay for this.

We're part way through a loft conversion. Hip to gable extension and double dormer. We changed our plans last minute to ensure that we came under permitted development, which is adding up to 50 cubic metres. We aren't touching the party wall. Even then we have spoken to the guy who deals with use of communal green to make sure everyone knew and our immediate neighbours. Base price was £65k, which doesn't include roof/render/bathroom

After reading the comments something certainly does not sir right with me and as I said they are most certainly the type to cut corners and do things cheaply as long as it doesn't affect them, they couldn't care less if our wall fell down to be honest. They did mention doing the pipework and waterworks themselves to cut cost which I'm not happy with because that could most definitely affect us if not done correctly. My dp said he'll get a pws and wait for their letter and speak with them about concerns. So far all I have heard is my friends friend is a builder so he's coming to measure up ect and my friends friends will show us where pipes need to be so they are most definitely cutting corners but I will make sure that whatever they do it won't affect the party wall. The last thing we need is something to happen and not be covered and need to find money to get it fixed.

You are really NOT being unreasonable stopping them using the PW. They will only lose 300mm which is nothing in a full width dormer.

I would say that it is more about saving on the cost of tiling an extra dormer side (false economy, obviously). They would know that a full width dormer plus or minus a few cm makes little difference to their use of the room. They want to save money but don't want to 'fess up and come across as the cheapskates you know they are!

I think your right. From the research I've done online it seems there isn't alot I can do about them using the party wall but can protect any damage that could be caused and can dispute with some concerns and see if they will do it away from the party wall. I'd have absolutely no problem with it if it wasn't on the party wall. If any damage occurs once its built due to any pipework they have done themselves would anything be covered in regards to that or would we still be liable to cover costs of any damage?

No. They are liable for any damage. This is in the party wall agreement. There is the “before” condition and the “after” condition. If you object to their PWA, you get your own surveyor. If you are concerned about the structural integrity of their proposals and how they affect you, get a qualified surveyor or structural engineer. They should receive working drawings from the builder. The PWA working on your behalf, should be clear that any damage caused by them will be paid for.

I’d get them to part for a good surveyor - but if you ever do an extension yourself they will demand one back. Also your surveyor will take loads of photos of your side of the wall but take loads yourself too so you have further evidence of any damage they may cause. I told my neighbour to draw it up herself but she was lovely and I know her builder, wouldn’t do it in your case.

Enforcing PWA claims for damage is a costly process and does not always result in a fair outcome so I would be wary of relying on it.

@Barilla
Yes it can be an issue but it shows the neighbours you mean business and are not a pushover. The law allows for the OP to appoint a surveyor which must be paid for by the neighbours. The surveyors agree the PWA. Getting one drawn up by a neighbour is utterly foolhardy. You have no professional input at all! So don’t do it. If you extend, then you factor in a PWA at your expense.

Thankyou for all your replies. I will now search for a good pw surveyor and make sure we are protected from any damage and when the neighbours mention it again I will be telling them we are getting our own surveyor. I feel better now I know a little more about the situation and will not allow them to talk me around to use their surveyor

Surely if they build on the party wall the structure will encroach onto your side with the roof, guttering etc? Is that enough to require planning permission?

Additionally it will affect you when you sell. Every time I see a house with one of those full width dormers on next door’s roof I steer clear because it tells me that first, I will have to put up with someone else’s crap encroaching on my property and second, that the neighbours are self centred inconsiderate arseholes.

Make it really clear to the surveyor about the subsidence and tell building control about it too if the project goes ahead. Don’t presume they will spot everything.

@Vanillacupcake33
Thats not usually how it works. The neighbours give you the PWA they have had drawn up by a PW surveyor. Ask them to provide one. You object to that and say you are appointing your own surveyor at their expense. The PWA is then revised and agreed between the two surveyors. You can contact a PW surveyor first but normally the person extending does the legwork. It’s all in the government website.

Don't be surprised if their 'PWS' isn't one.

Not having a PWA hasn't stopped a local smart-arse converting family homes into HMOs and he boasts about not bothering with Surveyors as costs money. No shit, Sherlock.

And before anyone, asks the Council are useless and our local MP is a waste of space.

The council planning office usually give really good advice, even if planning isn't needed (though I suspect it is in this case). They can also tell you whether it does need planning permission.

Deffo get your own surveyor.

If they are building on the party wall, they need consent. Usually, they would be required to 'step in' back from the line of the party wall within permitted development.

At the very least, photograph every inch of the party wall on your side so that if they cause damage you can prove it. Send the photos to them in a document and ask them to approve them, sign, date as accurate and fair. They can come and look at your party wall if they want to satisfy themselves that the photos are accurate. (But your own surveyors' report is better.)

You are entitled to ask for lots of details.

Ask to see builder's or architect's plans and refuse to grant consent unless you see them.

Ask how they will deal with the weight of the new dormer - this should be on the plans.

Ask to see their insulation plans.

Ask who their Building Control company and named contact are. Then get in touch with them and make sure they're not lying!!

Ask how they will deal with existing and new gutters.

If there's a shared chimneystack, ask how they will safeguard that during works, and what remedial works they will put in place for this stack if needed. Chimney stacks are often sources of leaks.

I say all this as someone who did the dormer, but I did it properly, with my neighbours, and we had no issues at all.

It is encouraging to hear that there are still some "excellent" planning departments out there.

@eyeslikebutterflies All of that should be in the PWA. The op’s surveyor should take photos etc. Also agree what’s in the PWA. The op shouldn’t have to do all of this herself. However if no PWA from the neighbours is forthcoming, then appoint a surveyor.

My dp will be going up the loft over the weekend to take some photos so we have some proof ourselves aswell as whatever pictures the surveyor will take. Reading posts in here have made me feel better about the situation because I assumed they could go ahead whether we agree or not. It definitely won't be an easy ride with them because as I said they are the I want it I'll do it type. A couple in the street have given me a number to their surveyor they used a while a back who has a good background and I've got a few more written down to look up. I'm fully aware I can't stop the work but I am very concerned damage could be caused during or after and it's the last thing we need. I have checked on the council website and they don't seem to have put in planning permission just yet. I will also ring the council for some information so I have as much info as possible so they can't try to feed me any lies that previously I probably would have believed.

Sounds good OP!

Also, when PPs have said "take photos of every inch of the wall", be aware that damage can happen downstairs too - when you are adding a huge heavy extra bit onto a load-bearing wall the works can mean that movement causes cracks on walls on the ground floor and first floor too.

This happened to our neighbours when we extended (properly with all boxes ticked!) - they got cracks appearing around the ceiling in the neighbouring rooms downstairs.

The PWA didn't contain pictures of those rooms but we like and trust our neighbours so we paid for the plasterer to sort it all out anyway - but your neighbours seem like they'll need the photos of the walls as they are now, before they pay out for damage! So make sure you get those photos.

Best of luck!