Should I give in and put the kitchen contractor extra money or stand my ground?

[Mogs43]

Sorry in advance for this being so long!! I own a flat in central London. In august there was a big leak from one of my neighbours. The buildings insurance (paid through the service charge to Managing Agents) has agreed to pay £10k for a new kitchen (like for like) and labour. The Managing Agent (without consultation ) employed one of their preferred contractors . I was a bit miffed at first but then thought at least they’ll know him/ must be reliable etc. i had seen a DIY Kitchen I liked - prior to getting the contract the fitter said he was open to using them but once the contract was agreed said no the kitchen had to be from Howdens!

So after some persuasion (they can price match your DIY kitchen etc) I agreed. The fitter has now come back ti me and said that the kitchen will cost £500 more than he was originally quoted (he wants to spend £4k on the kitchen and 6k on labour) and I need to pay the difference. I never saw his initial Howdens quote and feel he may be pulling a fast one. I have already agreed to pay separately for the worktop, upstands, splashback, tap, handles, tile flooring and paint! He claims that the problem is the Belfast sink and a glass fronted cabinet. These items were included in the DIY Kitchen quote which he initially said he would match (and with only cost £ 3.9k). He claims all the items I have bought he could get for £200 but the sink and glass cabinet door cost over £500 and I should pay for them. I feel he is being unfair. Should I stand my ground or just pay the difference to keep him happy (for now) ? I do worry he will just keep doing this on costs.

We have agreed to meet next week to speak about it. The Managing Agent is going to come along. Unfortunately last time this happened I ended up being persuaded to ditch the lovely DIY Kitchen and go with something much inferior but more expensive from Howdens. I even agreed to pay for it to be sprayed the colour I wanted which was included in the DIY Kitchen quote.

Please can you advise me as to what to do? I do feel like walking away but we have spent so long on this now the thought of starting from scratch fills me with horror but maybe it’s what need to happen?

Sorry for the typo in the heading!

‘Should I give in and give the kitchen contractor extra money or stand my ground’.

He claims all the items I have bought he could get for £200 but the sink and glass cabinet door cost over £500

Ask him to show you where he gets those costs from. IMO (unhappy) experience, managing agents employ complete cowboys who charge more because the tenants get stuffed with the costs.

So the £10k budget was set in August. But with 11% inflation (and from what I understand cosy inflation for building materials is much higher) , that same kitchen is going to be at least £500 more today.

So I don’t think the contractor is being unreasonable. I think you need to have him draw up a breakdown of the costs estimated in August, vs actual costs today and submit that to the buildings insurance company asking for an increase in the £10k alllowance. For example…list price of Belfast sink in August compared to price end of October…all the issues he’s listed as having shot up in price.

The insurance company is supposed to get you back to where you were before the leak…so if it’s costing a bit more than they thought in August due to the high inflation…they should be bumping up what they are paying.

If prices go up in the meantime that's their problem not yours.

When we had a claim, at the start of the work it would have cost them £100 per item to match our existing ones. However because they dragged out the claim for so long (which I had already put a complaint in about) the original supplier had gone out of business. The next closest was £200 but because it wasn't an exact match they needed to actually replace all 8 so they matched instead of just the 2 to match. The project manager was unhappy but I pointed out the increase wasn't my fault as I'd given them the matching link right at the start and they had chosen not to buy them then. I got my way and got the more expensive item and 8 of them.

So I wouldn't accept this extra cost and push it back to the insurers.

Just to say, 6k labour on a 4k kitchen seems really high!? How big is the room?

If you're not happy and feeling you're beig strong armed, complain to the insurance company maybe?

Yep, this is the insurers problem not yours. Prices have gone up massively for contractors. They’re not pulling a fast one to be informing you of this.

I agree with pp 6k for fitting a 4k kitchen is outrageous

Not really. Labour is usually more expensive than materials.

@Discovereads very rarely in a kitchen, if ever
Same as Windows and doors, high material costs

Not that much more that’s ridiculous.

OP I agree they’re trying it on, I’d get your own quote with fitting for the kitchen you actually want and contact the insurance company yourself to say you want to organise it yourself, is that an option?

£6k for fitting? How long does it take to fit a fucking kitchen, 3 months of 40 hour weeks!?!

That's a joke.

At worst - £250 a day labour - tops. If it's a small kitchen really shouldn't take more than a week (and that's being generous) - That's not even £2k labour.

(missing the point here but…) why do you need a new Belfast sink because another flat had a leak? I understand the need to replace cupboards and flooring, but surely you can reuse your existing sink? If it’s being funded by insurance they only need to replace what is damaged. If you’re having a new sink because you would like a new sink, that cost is on you.

I would seriously question the labour costs. We are in the bespoke, hand made kitchen business, making and installing them for 20 years. Realistically it should take one man no more than 3 or 4 days to install a howdens type kitchen in an average 3 bed semi type size home, assuming he works an 8 hour day. Let’s be generous and give him a week, at £6,000 he’s earning £150 an hour, which is far greater than the going rate. On the other hand, if it’s going to take him a full month - 20x 8 hour days, @£300 a day (average fit s good joiner) I’d expect the kitchen to have at least 60 cupboards and 50 drawers etc etc, which you can’t get from howdens for £4K. Your being ripped off OP. The labour costs for your kitchen should be £1200/£1500 max.

You lot are in cloud cuckoo land. See attached for just one kitchen provider. It is quite clear that the cost of materials with no installation is far below the cost of materials plus dry installation of the kitchen. And if the OP wants the electrics, plumbing and gas done too, those are extra labour costs on top of what this shows.

Thank you for your responses- really helpful. My flat is tiny - one bedroom. There are 15 units. The fitter thinks it will take less than a week (I have agreed to move out whilst he does it).

The leak was very heavy and went on for hours (neighbours were away) - cabinets came away from the walls , contents and sink smashed.

I have said I am prepared to pay for some items but am concerned that my lack of knowledge means I may overpay, that if I pay for this he will keep asking for money.

my presence would be to get my own fitter in and use a DIY kitchen as I had initially planned. The Managing Agent has said I can’t speak to the insurance company directly (only they do - buildings insurance is included in the service charge). They have said I would have to pay upfront and then be reimbursed which I would be fine about but he wasn’t keen and pressed for the fitter.

The fact they’re saying you’re not ‘allowed’ to speak to the insurance company sounds dodgy to me, you own the flat & pay for the insurance, what do they have to hide by allowing you to speak to the insurance company?

Do you have an official agreement/contract with the managing agent that sets this out in writing or is it just their say so?

Have you been given any documentation from the insurance company re the pay out?

Is there any kind of residents committee for liaison with the management company who you could go through?

Thank you. I haven’t had anything in writing. I think it’s probably all above board just not very transparent or well communicated. They have their way of doing things and it’s probably not in the best interest of residents? There is a residents association which I am a member of but they are not very active (it’s a huge complex).

The licence agreement just says you have to pay a service charge which includes buildings insurance but doesn’t say how claims etc will work. I imagine the Managing Agents (who have very poor online ratings) have come up with their own process.

i think ultimately I will probably end up having to go with it , although will ask again about employing my own contractor/ speaking to the insurance company etc. I just don’t want to get completely ripped off. Will also ask about seeing the initial quote, going back to the insurance company re:: inflation and whether the £6k is a reasonable charge for fitting. If anyone has another ideas about what else I could say please do let me know.

I suppose I am a bit torn. Don’t want to be ripped off , am worried that if I give him the extra money this will just be the start / inevitably he will ask for more but I do want to get this completed and if just giving him this money will keep him happy and he would do a good job then of course I would do it. Just not sure which way it would go? It’s a gamble?

I know Labour has gone up but no kitchen fitter earns 1200 a day. That is outrageous.

OP based on your last update I’d involve the residents association - are there many of you? Can you call a meeting with them and raise your concerns?

The fact none of this ‘process’ is documented isn’t on, and I agree it sounds like the management company have decided on it themselves as it suits them and nobody else.

Did you get a full quote including labour for the original kitchen you actually wanted so you could compare to what they’re proposing?

Not at all, that shows that even the most expensive option from that supplier for a small kitchen with installation would be £7882, gas/electrics for a small kitchen aren’t going to cost more than £2k.

I've had a claim on building insurance sorted by a managing agent before and you bet I spoke to the insurer about it. I also went with their preferred supplier as it meant I got the replacement, not the amount they'd decided the replacement cost. Yous should not be paying to top up to get a like for like replacement, not a single penny.

What do you mean “not at all” every kitchen on that list the labour costs as much or more than the materials for a dry fitting. As the OP also needs electrics, plumbing and gas done this would further increase labour costs.

My post was in response to a few posters saying that materials always cost more than labour for kitchens and that the labour should be only £1-2k. Which is cuckoo.