Planning permission delay

[SpidersAreShitheads]

We put in our application for planning in May - it took four weeks to be validated (which is double the maximum length of time they're supposed to take).

We were supposed to have a decision by 4th August - I believe this is known as the determination date.

A couple of days before the decision was due, someone from planning rocked up to take photos so it was very bloody clear that it was going to be late.

There is a notice on the council's website saying planning is taking longer and there might be delays. I've looked at other applications and they seem to have taken about a month longer than their determination date.

We are now about 7 weeks past our determination date. I phoned Planning last week and again today and our case officer has now sent an email which says:

"I am now in a position where I will soon be able to write up my delegated report to be peer assessed. To allow time for this process to happen, I would like to request an extension of time until 07.10.2022 please?

To extend the time I require your written confirmation, this can be done through the response to this email."

FFS!!! When I spoke to him on Thursday last week he told me he'd be getting something out on Thursday or Friday and now it's going to take another two and a half weeks. And I don't even know if that means the determination date will be within those two weeks, or just the letter will be sent. My understanding is that they send a letter which gives you the determination date - which is usually a week or two later. So in actual fact, if this is the case, the determination date won't actually be for another 3-4 weeks probably??

He's asking for permission, but what are my rights? What happens if I refuse permission?? I'm majorly pissed off now - it's a really simple, single storey extension with no objections from neighbours and he's already told me over the phone that there's no issues with light etc. The case officer said he just needed to check that externally the plans look OK.

There's nothing I can do but agree is there? I do sympathise, they're obviously mega busy, but ours appears to have taken twice as long as other applications despite not being any more complex.

Just to add a little context.....

The initial application was submitted in April, and was declined at the start of May - four weeks later - because the architect forgot to submit proof of my DM's disability. That had nothing to do with the application validity, but just related whether we had to pay the fee. Rather than ask for proof to be sent, they rejected the whole bloody application. That meant we had to resubmit it and wait for a further four weeks again. I do blame the architect for that, but equally, there was no need to reject the whole application and re-set the clock.

Planning permission is needed to create an annexe for DM, so that me, DP and DC can move into the main house. My DC are both autistic, my DS with high needs, so I can't move in until the building work is done because he just won't cope.

DM's health is rapidly deteriorating, and I really do need to be there. That's why we're doing the annexe in the first place. But she's gone downhill quicker than expected.

Also, there's no bloody heating because the boiler has packed up - but the British Gas engineer says the new boiler and pipes need to go in AFTER the extension, hence the big hurry up.

I'm not in a rush just because I want my shiny new extension. There are very real and genuine reasons to want to get on with this. .

Your only option is to agree an extension of time (unless you want to appeal for non-determination and add months to the process….) - this should mean that they make a decision and issue the permission by the 7th October.

For what it’s worth there’s real issues with local authorities recruiting and retaining decent planning officers, it’s not just that they have a lot of work but that they just don’t have the staff that they should either.

They ask for you to agree to an extension of time to determine the application so that you don't go to appeal for non-determination. If you don't have a decision within 8 weeks, you have the right to go straight to appeal with the planning inspectorate.

I have to say nearly all Councils are taking way beyond the statutory time to determine even the most basic of applications at the moment. Like all public services they seem to be suffering from a lack of funding and have not enough staff to deal with applications.

However, Appeals are taking even longer so I wouldn't go down that route.

@SleepySleepyByeByes and @Seeline - aah right, thank you both. Yes, seems pointless to go to appeal now when hopefully it’s just a few weeks away.

I completely sympathise with workload and delays. I’ve been incredibly patient and not stroppy at all. Our case officer seems like a very nice person.

I expected it to be delayed- other decisions have all run over by about a month (last month’s decisions). But I don’t understand why ours will be more than two months delayed when it’s exactly the same type of application.

Im desperately trying to be understanding but our application - which is very basic - seems to be way more delayed than anyone else’s. Also, if my understanding is correct, it’s only the letter with the determination date that will come out by 7th October - the actual date is then set for a couple of weeks later.

My DM has cerebral palsy, is elderly and is just in rapidly declining health in general. I’m 15 miles away now so it’s constant back and forth and DM is starting to become anxious and distressed. My DC both have significant care needs, DS especially high. I work (self employed) F/T, have to home educate as no school places. I could really do without this further delay as I’m holding everything on my shoulders and I’m about to drop.

Sorry. I know I’m whinging now but everything has been a sodding nightmare and I really could do with catching a break. Thank you for the info. I’ll just count to 10 and wait patiently 😂

Agree the extension of time, out of time applications cannot be prioritised over out of time ones. By agreeing the extension of time you're keeping yourself in the queue and will get your decision quicker.

I'm the planning officer in a similar situation, we are hemorrhaging staff and the work is mounting up. We have to get work done in priority order if its already out of time and no extension agreed its at the back of the queue. It will get done but it just as we get to it on the list. Frankly there aren't enough hours in the day and we're all doing our best. Most of my colleagues understand the frustration and feel genuinely guilty we can't get more done. Others not so much but they're all working to resolve the situation.

I hope it all goes smoothly, and quick but keep yourself in the line and agree.

No fee is a validation requirement. The clock doesn't start until the application is valid therefore it was never restarted.

The letter on the 8th would be the decision notice that's how they are issued though can't promise it won't be further delayed.

The email was sent to our architect late this afternoon. He obviously knows the process so has just emailed the case officer back with authority to extend so that’s that really 😂😂 Even if I wanted to refuse I can’t now. I’d emailed the architect asking what our options were as soon as the planning extension request was received and he’s just ignored me completely (fairly standard for him but that’s a whole other story!!)

It’s fine though. I wouldn’t have refused anyway, based on what people have said here. I was just wondering if I refused whether it meant they’d have to approve the application now 😂😂

Before I was self employed I was a technical manager - our team was hopelessly understaffed, there was a lack of qualified individuals to recruit and the stress was enormous. So I really and truly do sympathise, genuinely, and I have been really, really patient and not pushed at all. When I rang I stressed that I understood they were swamped but I just wanted a realistic date - and he told me on Thursday he’d get the decision letter out last Thurs or Friday. Nothing received so I rang yesterday and left a message. Then rang again today and the extension email promptly appeared five minutes later.

I’m seeing all the other applications getting approval no more than a month after their due date and we’re still waiting nearly two months after our due date, so it just feels a bit unfair. It’s a basic single storey extension and they’ve confirmed verbally no tricky issues. I don’t understand why ours seems to be at the bottom of the pile. No one else’s is taking this long, and that’s my issue.

Also as a PP said what happens if they get to 7th Oct, they can just extend again can’t they?? This was supposed to be the straightforward part!! 😂🤦🏻‍♀️

@ItsJustASimpleLine - sorry, also meant to say thanks for the info, really useful. Much appreciated.

Our case officer seems lovely, so none of this is aimed at him. I’m sure it’s not much fun working under constant pressure. It’s just hard watching mum struggling.

Given the background re your mums health etc have you considered contacting your local ward councillor about the delays? May well be they can give the planning officer just enough of a nudge to make sure that it doesn’t go beyond the agreed extension of time…..

The initial application was submitted in April, and was declined at the start of May - four weeks later - because the architect forgot to submit proof of my DM's disability. That had nothing to do with the application validity, but just related whether we had to pay the fee

My sister works in this field.

An application is not valid without the fee or proof of exemption

So the application was not valid.

Why don’t you just start the work? If you are confident it will be approved…

As other posters have said, planning departments are massively struggling to retain staff and staff who do stay have overwhelming workloads. 150+ applications on their desk at each time is not at all uncommon. It sounds as though your case officer is trying their best and good that you are being as patient as you possibly can be. Unfortunately not everyone is and levels of abuse against staff is unbelievable. Contacting a councillor to give an office r a nudge just adds to the delay as it's another call/email they have to then deal with!

I should add that if you really want to make a difference then contact your local Tory councillor or MP to ask why they continue to allow public services (of which planning is only one) to be so underfunded over such a long period of time

Honestly? That's a shit system.

I used to work in medical/benefit claims and we had the same first step of validating the info received to make sure everything was included. Stuff was frequently missing but we didn't bin the whole application, and make them go back to the start.

I understand freezing the application and saying it's not been validated because XYZ is missing. Fine. But rejecting it and making the applicant start from scratch is just awful. It resets the clock which is ridiculous. I don't know anywhere else that does that.

But I appreciate that's their process. It's just that it's a shit process. Again, not aimed at the staff involved whatsoever. I completely accept it's not their fault at all. Every time I've phoned, they've all been lovely. I've not moaned at them in the slightest because I do understand they're doing their absolute best in tricky circumstances.

Also, I'm actually more pissed off with the architect about that initial rejection anyway as I asked him if he needed proof of the disability and he just ignored me (which as I said above, is fairly standard and just one of many, many issues I have with him).

Anyway, that issue is just a small grumble really - I only mentioned it to underline that it's been a long wait for what was supposed to be a very simple planning application. My main concern is that our application is taking much, much longer than anyone else's and I don't understand why.

OMG, I wish I had the balls to do this hahaha!

I'm not confident it will be approved, and that isn't helping!! I mean, it SHOULD be approved and on the phone the case officer indicated there were no issues with neighbours, light etc and that he just had to check the external plans to make sure the design is in keeping (it will be).

But I've never done a single scrap of building work before, this is being done out of necessity. So I can't say that I'm confident about any element of it, just because I have zero experience.

I will be astounded if it's refused especially as a large conservatory-type extension (bigger than our planned extension) has been given permission in an identical house further down the road. So I'm guessing all will be fine? But I wouldn't want to start properly. We've done the demolition required in the garden to prepare the ground for the building work, but that's it.

I understand freezing the application and saying it's not been validated because XYZ is missing. Fine. But rejecting it and making the applicant start from scratch is just awful. It resets the clock which is ridiculous. I don't know anywhere else that does that

Maybe it is ridiculous and maybe it is not ridiculous.

The fact of the matter is that the architect acting on your behalf messed up. They should know the framework that they are working in. Maybe sack them off and represent yourself if you already have the drawings.

If we don't have the fee we hold on to it for 4 weeks and then return it so the applicant has time to pay/prove an exemption. I'm not sure why your Council returned the full thing but until its valid it isn't in the queue at all so you didn't lose your place.

In terms of other applications getting determined before yours it depends on many factors, some planning officers will have more applications to get through so all of their applications will take longer or they have more complex ones together with the easier ones so everything slows down. Sometimes they're waiting for consultee responses which at the moment are painfully slow also. Applications aren't generally passed to another officer once allocated so it may be that other officers are getting through theirs a bit quicker.

Another factor is time of year, summer and Christmas there's a lot of leave amongst staff which can slow things down.

From what you've said the Planner is targeting getting your decision issued for 7 October and if they do that by that date then their performance statistics will not be affected. This will motivate them to stay on target as much as possible.

As a previous poster said I'm part-time and I'm sitting on 55 valid applications and 26 invalid plus 3 appeals, so 150 for full-time is bad. I usually have about 25 valid and 5-10 invalid. We lost a member of staff yesterday with no contingency in place so expecting another doubling of cases by the end of the week. Everybody I speak to whether in planning or not seems to be struggling with staffing atm its very worrying.

Posts like yours OP are what I worry my applicants are thinking, that they're so frustrated.

I have been doing this job for 15yrs and have never had applications go out of time like this before, simply because there's just not enough time to get through them. Since about June everything turned, prior to that most decisions were issued on time in 8 weeks with a huge proportion within 6 weeks. Feels like a lifetime ago now.

You're not wrong at all about the architect @LimboLass. And you're correct in that I squarely blame him for not sending the stuff in, especially as we hired him because he said he was very familiar with disability applications and had lots of dealings with this particular council so had contacts etc to ensure everything went smoothly. Just one of a stream of absolute lies.

I was sounding off about the council's process because rejecting it wholesale cost us an extra four weeks. It doesn't feel like a fair or good process to me. But you're absolutely correct in that the situation shouldn't have occurred if the architect had done his bloody job properly.

I won't be keeping him on for the rest of the work but I have to try and get a partial refund as we paid in advance for him to sort out the building regs, and I don't want him to do that now. He's not started it yet so I think he should refund me this part of his fee, but I doubt he will. I promise I'm not a diva, not sending in the disability letter is the least of his screw-ups.

I'm not sure what happened with the validation process but they returned it, we had to resubmit, and then it took a further four weeks to validate because it was treated as a whole new application rather than just a bit of missing info to add to a case file. So it actually took 8 weeks to get the validation through rather than the estimated 10 days. Basically, after they returned it, when it was resubmitted it was treated as a brand new application, hence the four week wait again. So in that sense we did lose our place in the queue.

Honestly though, that part of it isn't a big deal. I just mentioned it for completeness really.

Our consultee comments came through ages ago, mid-July. No concerns or objections. Just the usual re complying with building regs.

I did wonder about caseloads for different officers and whether that had a bearing. Our officer only came out to look at the site and take photos a couple of days before the due determination date, and I said to my mum at that point, that's not a good sign as it feels very, very late in the day to be taking photos. I said then that I expected the decision to be significantly delayed.....but I wasn't expecting quite this long.

I would expect some variance, but I haven't seen any other applications that have gone through which have taken as long as ours. Some have even been validated the same day. I think it's less the overall delay - although that is obviously a problem - but also the fact that I've got no idea what to expect because ours just doesn't seem to be following the same trajectory.

Just for complete disclosure here because it feels relevant - I am autistic and have ADHD, so uncertainty and not knowing what to expect and when is something I find quite hard. I think I saw other applications taking about a month longer than their determination date and in my head, I was expecting the same, and am now struggling with the fact that it's much longer than I was prepared for.

I was just thinking, and maybe next month there will be a whole list of applications which have taken similar timescales to ours. Maybe, like your office, something happened - maybe more staff losses etc - that slowed things down further from June onwards which is why the ones that have gone through were only a month overdue, and ours is going to be 2 months+ overdue.

I also think there may be a hold-up at the point above our planning officer. The woman I've spoken to a couple of times talked about "Kevin" (not his real name) having a pile of applications waiting for his signature "next time he's in the office". I think he's the next level up from our case officer, and has to approve their decisions? According to the email, our case officer hasn't written his report yet but even once he does that, it looks as if there's another delay above him. Yikes. Really do hope we get a decision by the 7th!!

As I said though, none of my frustration is aimed at the case officer or the admin staff in the office. They're really helpful when I ring. And I've only rung a handful of times, mainly in the last week or so. I've been in professional situations where every time the phone goes it's another person complaining that you haven't dealt with their item so I've been patient and not grumbled at them in the slightest. I really do appreciate it's not their fault.

We were told our local office had 'problems recruiting'. I gave them the benefit of the doubt, as I know things can be difficult right now. Then the other week I heard they had been making staff redundant not long since. So I take anything they say with a pinch of salt. My bet is that it is cuts to LA funding but they have been told not to say so.

We have had no redundancies in our planning team. But just cannot fill vacancies.

We have had 2 people (experienced) with long term health problems, 3 excellent planners with 4 years post qualification experience have gone to private practice and we have been totally unable to recruit experienced staff. It’s a nightmare at the moment.

I’ve been doing the job for 20+ years and I’ve never known it like this. I am part time and have 73 applications, about 20 out of time, and 18 ish invalids. the rest just keep coming. Got another 4 today. Relying on extensions of time, plate spinning like crazy. And as experienced staff leave or fall ill, means that for more experienced team members it’s not a caseload of householder extensions but a hefty caseload of housing schemes, commercial development and god-awful/controversial prior approval applications for upward extensions and changes of use.

usually it’s a brilliant job. With our department, we had major issues with admin function during lockdown alongside an increase in applications. I love the work - and my colleagues. But on the edge constantly at the moment - the worst thing is that all the planners I work with would love to be able to get the applications processed quickly and well, with time for discussion with applicants, minor tweaks if required, good quality feedback and so on. So it’s really sad that we just can’t at the moment.

Just an update for anyone who's interested. As I mentioned, Planning asked for an extension until 7th which they said would provide enough time to finish writing the report and get it peer reviewed and agreed.

It was therefore due yesterday - nothing. Still not done. We're now more than two months past our due determination date. DM is struggling like mad with her health and now I doubt very much that we'll be able to get the work done by Christmas. This is an issue as it means that work won't get started until the new year, leaving my disabled DM without any support in the coldest months of the year which is when her health suffers the most.

And just for good measure, because of the delay, the price of the building work has gone up by around £16,000 (quoted in June and that's now expired as work hasn't started).

I'm so utterly bloody frustrated.

I completely empathise with Planning, I'm obviously not blaming them at all. I'm sure they're working their arses off and are thoroughly sick of this too. But it's been more than five months since our application was submitted and I have no idea when we're going to get a decision. Our budget for the work was already stretched and now I have to try and magic up another £16,000 because of a paperwork delay. DM is constantly ringing me in tears and I don't know what to say about when we're going to get an answer. Just aargh!

It's no help to you but our local planning department appears in disarray and our planning consultant is hugely frustrated with them . Applications submitted in March have still not had an answer and all we can do is wait.