Grade II listed house

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Dp and I have fallen hard for a townhouse that is grade II listed. Before we buy it... just how awful is living in a listed house??

For example, the wooden sash windows need attention. I'd love to get the lot replaced with wooden sash double glazing, but so far the information I've seen suggests that will probably be rejected and we'll be told to repair them and buy thick curtains...

You'll have to get listed building consent for all works. Maybe a call to your local authority to discuss their general approach to conservation may be beneficial? Some works to Listed Buildings have a reduced rate of VAT so that can be a bonus!

I wouldn’t tbh. Some listed buildings officers are more helpful/officious than others ime but issues like double glazing are important.

We were allowed to have double glazed panels fitted into our existing wooden window. We also could fit secondary glazing if we wanted to. We got permission for the changes.

We were allowed to replace ours with new double glazed sash windows. A lot depends on the council as they tend to have differences on that, and what kind of state the originals are in. Ours was grade II and also under the stewardship of English Heritage (long story involving previous owners), so pretty complicated.

My advice is to hire a heritage consultant. It's some money up front but absolutely well worth it. They really know what you can and can't get away with and also how to sort of bargain with the planning officer, i.e. we'll agree to this, but you should give on that, etc. Without ours, we would have wasted loads of time applying for things that looked brilliant on the architect's plans but didn't stand a chance of being approved.

How exciting, though!

I live in one and would never buy one again! Sometimes it feels it's not our own, given the permissions we're supposed to seek. But our LA seems pretty doctrinaire whereas others seem a little more conciliatory.

You might like to have a look at this website.

www.lpoc.co.uk/

I sold my Grade II to a really unpleasant chancer in 2020, he submitted his listed consent in March, still waiting - and bats have moved in.

So many people don’t stop to consider for even a moment that the purpose of heritage listings is to preserve the house as an asset for future generations.

If you don’t subscribe to this ideal, please stay clear and buy a house which is better suited to your needs.

The thing is, @OriginalLilibet many of us listed property owners want to preserve and do other good things like making the properties fit for purpose for the 21st century and beyond. If they're not they will decline; they cannot be preserved in aspic.
And frankly some of the council officers making decisions on my home have been a joke - really not qualified. One identified arrow slits. Even the kids fell about laughing; they were ventilation openings because part of the building was a barn. But they insisted these features were arrow slits despite the building dating from the early 19th century.
The debate in the city of Bath has been interesting. The place leaks energy because the homes can't be brought up to scratch.

@faffadoodledo
@OriginalLilibet

I think both those things can be true.

On the one hand, these buildings should absolutely be protected against having pvc banged in all over the place. On the other hand, very few buildings are unchanged since they were constructed and, in some ways, the older your house is, the more that's likely been done to it over the years. No one's wanting to go back to chamber pots. And there does need to be some acceptance on the part of councils and heritage that these houses need to be fit to live in now. You can be true to an old house without being slavish to original building methods. And for the good of us all as a society, there should be a real look at giving a nod to modern methods of energy efficiency. We asked for solar panels and were summarily shot down.

If they want these buildings to stand and be maintained, affordability also has to factor in. We had to use the heaviest and most expensive roof slates in existence it seemed. The lead time was forever, they cost a fortune and the house had to be heavily shored up to withstand the weight. For a roof that no one can see unless they're perched on the roof of a neighbouring house.

There's also a bit of silliness around the listings. Our house was listed in the 70s, so included were 70s era 'improvements' like vinyl shutters which we were told we needed to reinstate. On a Georgian house. We did fight that successfully 😂

@faffadoodledo escalating energy costs represent a serious crisis for listed buildings and their owners. Historic England need to take urgent action to revise their guidance surrounding renewable energy and insulation however they (and we) shouldn’t lose track of the fact that the acute crisis will be temporary.

There are so many ways that the energy efficiency of old buildings can be improved without ruining them. Secondary glazing, insulating plasters, natural fibre insulation, curtains and shutters etc etc. have so much potential (even beyond current product offerings). Even conservation grade double glazing looks terrible however it has its place in inconsequential rear elevations.

I agree completely that buildings can be improved without ruining them. But inevitably the improvements will mean some changes. And frankly my experience is one of total
Intransigence on the part of officers who make these decisions. There's no way I would 'ruin' my home and it's features and character. But I would dearly like to improve it. Naively I thought that might be possible!

The acute crisis may be temporary, but all the preservation in the world is going to be useless if these houses are under a metre of water because of rising sea levels. We all need to be moving toward greener solutions.

And I'm sorry, unless you're replacing original glass panes (most of which have been broken and replaced over the years) I'd be very surprised if a passer by could differentiate between well-made conservation grade double glazing and single glazing. We live in our house, there's no way I'd be pleased with living with secondary glazing, which is, frankly, hideous from inside, a pain to clean, and fiddly to open - all for the benefit of a passer by thinking my house looks more 'original'.

@greenday30 sadly (for me), I agree with the stance of HE and most councils against double glazing (sorry, anyone with even a passing interest can identify it from 100 paces ….) however I think it is inevitable that there will be a softening of the policy.

Wow, thank you all. I'm actually ok with doing what has to be done to preserve the character of the house - after all, that's why I've fallen for it - but I want to understand what I'm taking on. This is really helpful.

I was curious about this, so sent a quick email to our planning/heritage consultant to ask if they could see the difference. Their reply:

It really depends on the quality of the double glazing – some of the new systems are really amazing and can barely be noticed. Some others you can see the spacing between the glazing panes where it meets the frame.

For what it's worth, HE and the council were both happy with ours. We had to submit a sample, but didn't have any problems getting approval once they'd seen it. I do know some councils have a blanket policy, however.

One thing to add is that it's a three floor house and we've never used the heat above the first floor except the underfloor in the bathrooms (we've been in just over a year) and no heavy curtains!

We have some old and some newer windows in our listed house. We asked and double glazed the newer ones but haven't even asked about the really old ones. Those we got reconditioned and rehung with proper draft proofing which really helped. You'll be allowed secondary glazing anywhere. We've made about 5 listed building applications and all have been accepted.

Yes, of course it's more hassle owning a listed property but you own a piece of history and the character of our house is worth the extra hassle.

There is a very useful website with an active forum for those of us with listed and period properties. Ours is a large Grade II listed building built in the 1570s. I was very apprehensive about what we could/couldn't do when we were buying it, and the other listed building owners on that group were very helpful.

Luckily for us, ours was in very good condition, although the windows are all single glazed. We've overcome that with secondary double glazing after taking advice from others on the forum.

www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/forums/period-property-discussion-forum.1/

There's some good advice here. Also join the Traditional and Listed Building Advice group on Facebook.

We're in the process of buying a huge victorian house in a conservation area. It still has all the original windows (glass panes, sashes etc) and we're planning on getting them refurbished and draught proofed. We want to keep as many of the original elements as possible.

You can always tell double-glazed windows because of the way they reflect the light.

Having said that, I appreciate the need to be pragmatic about things like energy use. And it's a bit daft that you have to maintain the property as at the time of the original listing. Friends of mine wanted to change failing 1970s dormers and aluminium windows on a 1700s house, but had to replace with the 1970s stuff because that's what it was like when it was listed.

In general, the experiences of friends leads me to believe that if you approach the inspector first and ask for advice, you may end up being able to do more sensible things than if you decide exactly what you want and then go in hard fighting for it. I suspect many inspectors get fed up of people approaching them in aggressive mode or trying to sneak things through without permission, and if you start by asking their help, they are so surprised that they feel more accommodating. Friends who took that approach with an inspector they had been told was hard and unreasonable were pleasantly surprised, she turned out to be fine- she agreed to the things they wanted with just a few minor changes, some of which were a real improvement on their ideas anyway, and on her way out noticed rain blowing through under the front door, and suggested they put in a little roof over the door. They were amazed, they hadn't dared even ask for one!

Did you buy the Grade II listed townhouse?