Vendors won’t provide proof of insurance- Ireland

[alittleadvicepls]

Hello wise people of mumsnet!

I’m in a bit of a pickle. I went sale agreed on a home on Ireland and an extension was added to the house in 2005. I’ve got a ‘structural engineers report’ on it but it says the extension was exempt from planning permission. I’ve talked to an engineer and a quantity surveyor who have both seen the house with me and both agreed it was ‘weird’ a full single storey extension to the back of the house wouldn’t need planning permission. That’s issue 1.

Issue 2 is I want to make sure I can get the house insured. Vendors and paperwork say extension was exempt from planning permission. Fine. Then vendors say the property was never refused by a company insurance. Fine. I ask them (through our lawyers) to provide evidence of such. They’re refusing to provide proof of insurance or even who they’re insured with. I push back and my lawyer gets a bit snappy with me saying I’m being difficult and the vendor isn’t legally obliged to provide proof of insurance.

Am I mad? I don’t want to buy a property to then find out I can’t get it insured? How does that even work? Would I be able to back out from the sale? I’m a first time buyer so not sure if this is common. Please help!!

My logic is if vendors can provide proof of insurance then obviously issue 1 is a non-issue. Hence why I’m really pushing for that proof. My dad thinks I should give the vendors an ultimatum: give me proof of insurance or I’m withdrawing from the sale completely.

Of course you can back out. Sounds very dodgy. You may lose cash as you've instructed a solicitor however they don't sound like they're working in your best interests tbh.
And money lost now would be nothing compared to buying an uninsurable house with a dodgy extension.

Ring a couple of insurance companies or do quotes online to find out if it's insurable. Even if the owner currently has insurance and you get proof of that it doesn't confirm you could get insurance - they could be using someone they have used for years who don't take on new customers for all you know.

You’re not being unreasonable about the extension, though in the UK all sort of extensions can be built under what are called ‘permitted development’ rights and so wouldn’t have planning permission. But a structural engineer or quantity surveyor are not the people to consult about that as they are unlikely to have sufficient knowledge (though they might) of what is permitted. You need a planning consultant or similar. Perhaps Ireland has similar rights for homeowners?

On the insurance question, it is unusual in my experience to ask to see proof of who provides insurance. I probably wouldn’t provide ‘proof’ if I, as a vendor, were asked. I might provide the name of who provides cover,, but if I’d already had a long list of questions and follow up questions, then I might be inclined not to…

The question of whether insurance has ever been refused though is relatively normal though. In terms of insurability, the more usual action would be to put the address into one of the comparison sites and see which companies quote, and for how much.

You can put on a 40sq meter extension to the rear of a property without planning permission in Ireland. Look up the exempted development regulations to check if yours comes within the scope.

Re the insurance....I'm not sure why you would think you won't get insurance for the property. Have you had a building surveyor physically inspect the building? Have they voiced any concerns? Perhaps ask them to go back and focus on the extension if you are that worried. Or give the vendors an ultimatum. Proof of insurance or you pull out.

Just to further explain why the insurance has become such a big deal is because the engineer found so many issues with the extension- poor drainage, floor not flat and the further you move towards the back of the room the slope of the ground increases, room height doesn’t fit recommendations.

Honestly? From what you've written about the quality of the extension, I'd walk away unless you're prepared to knock it down and rebuild it. It is true that extensions can be built without planning permission under permitted development laws in the U.K. but they still have to be signed off by a building inspector and if they can't produce any proof it has been then walk away as it's unlikely any insurance company will pay out for it.

Phone around some companies to get quotes for insurance, that's normally what a. User would do. RE the extension, it might have been done under permitted development, but either way it should have build regs from the council, unless it's very different in Ireland....,

@Tabasco007 it does seem to fit in with building regulations because I’ve been able to find it on the councils website.

It could just be that the slopping of the floor is a result of poor drainage which has been highlighted in the engineers report anyway.

Maybe I’m just being unreasonable asking for an insurance certificate but it would really make me feel more comfortable with the purchase.

I've never heard of asking for proof of insurance, what does your solicitor say?

Is the engineer's report a report or a certificate of compliance? In Irish construction a certificate of compliance from an engineer is the standard and best form of documentation.

@RitaFires it’s titled ‘structural report’. I haven’t seen any certificates which is why I’m pushing on the insurance front. I might try to get quotes from a few insurance companies today and see how it works. I’m not sure what documenting an insurance company would need to verify a property’s eligibility for insurance.

Honestly - with want you've written in your shoes I'd back out.

A structural engineers report isn't quite as good as a certificate of compliance but if the report states it complies with planning and building regulations then that should be acceptable. What does your own engineer and solicitor say about it?

Ireland has had lots of problems with poor buildings even the quality of concerte.

OP, what you really need is assurance that the extension was properly constructed - proof of home insurance won't do that and the structural report normally doesn't provide confirmation of planning/building regulation compliance either (unlikely, but ask your engineer if they included this in their structural report).

If not, ask the vendors for the 'Certificate of Compliance with Planning Permission' that was issued to them when construction of the extension was completed.

Failing that, ask the vendors to produce a chartered engineers 'Opinion on Compliance with Planning Permission' as it relates to the extension. This is an opinion, by an engineer, that the extension complies with the regulations in place at the time of construction. Your solicitor should really have asked for this as soon as the structural report came back with structural issues. The opinion is provided to you, not by you, i.e. the vendors pay for it.

If the extension was built in 2005 it's subject to the 2001 regulations, so the cert/opinion will demonstrate compliance with current building standards and planning requirements. If you can't get either, you have a problem with the property.

Your solicitor is correct btw, there's no legal obligation on vendors to show their home insurance to a potential buyer(s). But neither should you make the biggest purchase of your life without being 100% satisfied that the property is properly constructed. And just remember - any structural issues you have now, and don't clarify, may have greater repercussions than you imagined (bad drainage + water = flooding) and will come up again if you ever want to sell the property.

Good luck.

Even if they have insurance it doesn't prove anything. Insurance companies don't come round to inspect properties. Problems would likely only come to light if a claim was made.

If its a “living room” rather than a conservatory it would have to comply with building regulations I see that a more of an issue than insurance because if building regulations were obtained it will be insurable.

OP, what you really need is assurance that the extension was properly constructed - proof of home insurance won't do that

We moved in to a house with an extension, we got insurance. It doesn’t cover the fact that it was constructed poorly and cost us nearly £4,000 to rectify. I’m not sure why you are so hung up on the vendor having insurance op.

Hi,

We build an extension about 10 years ago in Ireland and i just checked the certificate. It included a statement about planning permission exemption so that may be standard. I would not worry about that.

It also states the building is in compliance with the current regs and that the engineer in question verified the steel measurements.

If the certificate does not state it is in compliance with regs then that is a problem I think but I don't see how an insurance certificate will help that. Pretty unusual request.

I made my insurance aware when we were building the extension as there was an increased security risk during construction but aside from charging me extra that year they had no interest in building certificates etc.

Good Luck. It sounds like some remediation work is needed on the extension. Your surveyor should advise .
Hope it works out for you.

An insurance company will only care about whether an extension meets building regs when someone makes a claim. For substantial claims if they find that an extension doesn't meet the required standards they are likely to refuse to pay out.