Party Wall Advice

[neverendingpartywallproblems]

I posted about 18 months back due to neighbour being exceptionally difficult and got some really useful advice so was hoping someone could help again.

We finished renovations 15 months ago, did a loft conversion plus rear extension. Adjoining neighbour was lovely until works began and then extremely difficult to deal with. Placed multiple unreasonable demands (which we initially agreed to in order to keep the peace and to acknowledge inconvenience) which kept escalating.

Anyway PWA was awarded, neighbours used own surveyor. When work was coming to an end, neighbour approached with demands for painting due to cracks in walls amongst other things which he claimed had been caused due to works. Whilst we were confident some of this was pre-existing, we initially agreed to repair this as felt it was the right thing to do (they had several months of disruption and noise and our builder had a look and was happy to resolve). However, our initial acceptance resulted in escalating demands (for things we certainly did not cause such as a leak on other side of house - not adjoining wall) so we requested for an end of works survey. This was requested both informally to the neighbour and via our surveyor (who contacted theirs on multiple occasions). We heard nothing since.

Neighbour approached us a couple of months back telling us about some issues our build has caused and that they would like to resolve informally with us footing the bill. His list no longer includes the original items but is still excessive and we are not willing to entertain him any longer. He has phrased his letter as though it is for our convenience and our benefit to agree..

I wanted to ask for anyone with experience - is there a timeframe for this final survey to be done? We did our part by requesting it when works finished but they did not act. Both they and their surveyor did not respond to this request.
I appreciate damage from works can happen at a later date and so the PWA does not have a fixed timeframe to protect the adjoining owner for this but in this case, it is their inaction which is to blame and we do not have a limitless pot of money... Our builder was prepared to resolve all issues at the time and it was included in our contract with him. He cannot be expected to be available forever and the costs for all these works has increased dramatically. I don't feel it is fair for us to foot the bill for this because they did not act when we requested multiple times previously.

Hopeful bump

Not been in this particular situation, however, our party wall neighbours are resolutely ignoring our builders emails with dates to make good. So I too have been wondering if there is a limitation on this.

You, like us, used separate surveyors - I presume they did not agree on what was needed and so you’re trying to get the third party wall surveyor involved? The third party wall surveyor should have been named in the agreement. Or has neighbours party wall surveyor not been around for the final inspection at all? The party wall neighbours surveyor was positively pestering ours for a build completion date so that he could do this - a second set of photos were also taken.

Either way, in your position I would simply just tell your neighbour that it’s between the party wall surveyors now and thus out of your hands. Neighbour should contact their party wall surveyor regarding this going forward.

Ultimately your neighbour doesn’t have to let your builder make good, so it makes no difference on that score - they can insist you pay for someone else to do this. The Party Wall Act seems to have lots of holes in it, so it may well not set a time limit.

Thanks @LondonNQT , the final inspection has not been completed at all. We pushed for it (both directly with neighbour and via surveyor) multiple times but they just ignored.

Our neighbour has been difficult over ridiculous things - I would be completely sympathetic if they were complaining about dust/noise/disruption/damage to their property and make every effort to resolve. But none of these were a concern, they insisted on endless discussions about aspects of our build that were exactly as per plans (eg did not like the appearance of render when they sat in their garden even though it was same as previously), and constantly kept trying to threaten with legal action (we still don't know exactly what they wanted to sue us for) whenever we said we have done nothing wrong. If we did not engage, the next text would be that they will regretfully see us in court. We were threatened with court action for not wanting to discuss matters in their house but instead wanted to meet outside on neutral territory (in a pandemic!)

I guess I just want to know if we can say (and enforce) that if inspection is not arranged within 30 days, we assume there is nothing to be done. I understand some problems take years to develop (and so there is not a formal time limit for these) but these are not the issues they are bringing up

Sounds horrendous as well as odd. Your neighbours party wall surveyor should still have a final invoice (that you of course pay) outstanding as they’ve not done the final inspection - surely they want paying? What had your party wall surveyor said about it all?

It is in your neighbours interest to have this done sooner rather than later. As the later this is done the harder it will be to prove that your works caused this, rather than something else. However, I’m not sure a time limit like you suggest would be legally binding.

Maybe make an appeal to his humanity (terribly keen to get this resolved, appreciate our works have been painful for you, we’re all keen to move on with our lives etc) as a last ditch attempt? Failing that as I see it you have two options - fold to his bullying and fix the issues he feels you’ve caused, without having this confirmed by the final report, or call his bluff.

We've paid all the final invoices to surveyors but its explicitly clear in the award that a final inspection is included by their surveyor. Advice I received from elsewhere said that I should ask for a refund of this service as it has not been provided. Problem is I am 99% certain it is the neighbour who has prevented it and not surveyor's lack of action so I dont know whether they would refund us

My fear and annoyance is them trying to pin other later changes on us when it was not our works causing it (we finished the structural part in early 2021)- I want to say it should work in our favour as we have not obstructed anything but I can't find anything about it. The other thing is that if any damage has been done, the cost of rectifying is increasing by the day with cost of living increase and this is not because of us but we are powerless to do anything.

Sadly there is nothing to be gained by trying to appeal to their humanity. We tried several times over the course of the works and each time it was used as an opportunity to advantage of our offer and get more out of us. They created a fake complaint to council which they forwarded onto us (fake ref no included) even though we had followed our plans. When we contacted the council to request update on whether anyone would visit so we could have confirmation that we were indeed following our plans, we discovered that there had not been a complaint. This delayed us by a few weeks as we stopped work on that area (under pressure from said neighbour). They also tried blackmailing us and when we called their bluff (because we had done nothing wrong), they retreated only to then come up with some other nonsense a few months after. Despite all this, we gave them a generous gift at the end to apologise for inconvenience, they apologised for being awkward at the time and now 9 months later have presented us with this

Well he hasn’t exactly covered himself in glory has he! Our neighbours also did their best to stretch every inch into a mile, and have a penchant for throwing their weight around, but stopped short at falsifying documents, thankfully. Have a read of my posts if you fancy a chuckle :)

Why don’t you take his lengthy list and discuss it with you party wall surveyor to get an idea of what elements you could feasibly be required to fix. There is a website which sets out amounts for fixing all manner of things for this sort of thing. Put that money to one side, either mentally or figuratively.

These are of course subject to a contractor actually assessing the damage and, as you say, inflation etc. However, at least that way you can hopefully mentally sign off on this and skip straight to the good part - enjoying your lovely, newly renovated home!

Don't give him the satisfaction of letting this hang over you.

Thanks @LondonNQT, you definitely have been put through the paces by your neighbours too.

We don't actually have a list! They mentioned a few points which we noted down and then put to them in writing to work out next steps. Typical next stage is they don't reply for many weeks and then when they finally do, they change their story that those items are some of many issues. In the past, they have often then tried to take the piss at this stage so communication goes awry (example above when they threw toys out the pram because we did not want to go inside their house). We then hear nothing for several months then they approach with a new list of problems. There is no consistency at all.

DH went round once last Spring to discuss the issues he wanted resolving at the time - it was all repair of pre-existing cracks. We did not know at this stage that we had a final inspection included in our agreement and assumed cost of inspection would have been higher than repair so were ready to fix it all, date was arranged with our builder, on the verge of getting paint...then neighbour tried blackmailing us to change colour of render on our house (firstly it is our house and secondly, it was a plain white render, nothing unique!) or they would proceed formal party wall process and we would incur surveyor cost. At this point, we researched our award a lot further and discovered we had a final inspection. Replied that we will be doing nothing until inspection is complete and heard nothing more for several months. They tried again for some other issues (creaky floorboards apparently caused by us in an area where we didn't even touch the party wall!), we replied same and at this point pushed for final inspection to them and via surveyor. Heard nothing until recently when they now has another list (which includes none of the original items).

Definitely enjoy throwing their weight around and talking down to us like we are children with no experience of property or relationships with neighbours. Their letters and conversations are so patronising and they insist on immediate responses yet when we contact them, they happily make us wait several weeks before replying because they are so busy.

How is your relationship with them on a daily basis? When you see them in driveway? Funny thing is we have no issues there, the renovation just seems to have brought out an ogre in them and we feel more and more like they just want to make money out of us because we dared do the same thing they did many years ago

Ah, well... After one incident in particular, I was asked (told) that all comms were to go through ‘the husbands’, which I had been respecting. Of course she is above even her own rules and so had been contacting my husband directly whenever it suited her.

On the fourth instance I messaged her directly and made it clear that this was unacceptable - she claimed, and I quote, to have “…no idea what you’re talking about…” So I helped her to understand that if she contacted my husband directly again I would resume communicating directly with them both at will :) She seems to have gotten the picture now, funny that.

They, including their nanny, were so incredibly rude to the team on site during our build that the foreman told his guys to pretend to not speak English if they came around. I mean honestly, these guys are not exactly wallflowers!

Builder has now given them a second date to go round - they responded over a week later, yet again. So I presume we will now need a third date. They’ve also made an almighty fuss about having the fence between us upgraded, which we’ve said can’t be done until the party wall stuff is sorted.

Initially and during the build I think they were trying to control the situation, throw their weight around and are incredibly self involved. He’s a barrister, she’s a solicitor (and I don’t particularly care if this outs me). But really, goodness only knows knows what they’re playing at now.

People like this need really firm boundaries in my experience. Judging by how our neighbours responded I can only think that we’re the first people to have done so - yours too by the sound of it.

Good luck, stand firm and try to care less ;) You’ve done nothing wrong and I’m sure any judge/lawyer would see this from a mile off and throw it out.

If I were in your shoes, their professions would have made me feel inferior but clearly shows that people can be absolute jerks to their neighbours no matter what they do. Reminds me of someone who once lived next to my parents - upstanding member of the community, regular charity work, quite well known but behaved so badly towards neighbours and caused them so much unnecessary drama (fortunately for my parents, it was the neighbour on the other side they conflicted with but they were really awful towards them)

We also had a whole big fence drama with ours - last Jan they wanted a written agreement 'that would stand up in court' for our agreed resolution. We stuck to our side and did everything we agreed to yet 18 months on, it is clear they will not be doing what they committed to. I feel they just want to drive us round in circles for no reason - so far, they have achieved nothing from this headache they caused us.

Our surveyor has sent yet another request for the final survey to their surveyor. We have also received independent advice to get 3rd surveyor involved and that this should not be at our cost as it is the surveyors who have not done what they were supposed to despite us confirming end of works many times. Apparently the onus will now be on them to prove the damage was due to our works rather than that be the default and I am just desperately hoping this is the case. I really hope this is true as we did it all as we should and hate this hanging over us

How is your house? I hope you are managing to enjoy it too and they dont stop you from doing so :)

The 3rd surveyor decides who pays the fees of a dispute summitted to them. Formally a dispute would mean input from both sides for the 3rd Surveyor to make a decision. That can mean three sets of fees so it can get expensive very quickly. Costs might be split between owners any way the 3rd Surveyor sees fit. This can also put your neighbour at risk of carrying the can for ALL those costs if they are behaving unreasonably. Just floating that option can focus minds once they realise how much that might be (say £1.5k+). Useful to back them into a corner, but be aware of the risks on fees.

Alternatively your surveyor can make a decision with the 3rd surveyor jointly, cutting the other one out if they are not responding or acting effectively.

It might be worth you discussing with the 3rd surveyor directly, you have every right to contact them, but - depending on who it is they may or may not want to have an informal conversation and give advice without informing all parties. Mileage varies.

Sounds to me like your surveyor is saying to the neighbours / their surveyor that if they are not prepared to allow a final inspection to justify any claim he'll be closing his file. Seems to be a sensible position.

You should be entitled to a refund from their surveyor, but odds on the response will be they've spent all that fee time dealing with this issue and unfortunately.. etc.

Thanks @TPWG.

Sounds to me like your surveyor is saying to the neighbours / their surveyor that if they are not prepared to allow a final inspection to justify any claim he'll be closing his file. Seems to be a sensible position
This was exactly the stance 18 months ago when we were requesting the end of works inspection and we were advised there was nothing to be concerned about by our surveyor. Significant time has passed and our neighbour has now raised the issue of remedial works again and has a whole new host of problems they want us to fix (the original ones have miraculously disappeared🙄).

We were advised at one point we could request a refund of the final inspection because they have failed to do one but I don't really want to go down that road - I want the inspection so that the matter can be closed as our neighbours are not predictable.

We were advised by a surveyor (introduced by a friend, involved in our case) to instruct our surveyor to get the 3rd surveyor involved due to lack of action towards the end of works survey. We were advised the cost of this would not be on us but between the current surveyors as they have not provided the service that has been paid for. If a dispute over the work to be done follows, the 3rd surveyor cost would be as you have outlined but if I am honest, I am very doubtful our neighbour would take it to that stage. They just love throwing their weight around with us and trying to make us feel inferior because we are a young family. They are extremely reluctant to do anything that involves them actually spending money

Sorry the last paragraph should read NOT involved in our case. The surveyor who has advised us is independent of this fiasco

Understood. 18 months, winter and a good hot summer - plenty of scope for challenging minor decorations at this point.

Either surveyor - or owner - can appeal to the 3rd surveyor in the event of a dispute (including if you think a surveyor isn't pulling their weight), but the cost risks still apply.

A good 3rd surveyor will have some experience gently twisting surveyor arms to get things resolved. They don't usually want a long involved dispute to resolve (knowing how unwelcome their fees might be at the end).

Your surveyor might feel defensive if you approach them directly, so perhaps ask if you can all zoom call to work out the best way to unlock this? If that feels like a non-runner then no harm just speaking direct for informal advice. Most (not all) will provide that. They don't usually get contacted by owners so should be sympathetic.

Keep in mind they won't know necessarily they were selected as 3rd Surveyor (strange I know but they might be on hundreds of Awards and only 0.2% blow up..) so might want a copy of the documents but it sounds like you can set the scene for them.

Having a solid timeline and evidence of your efforts to amicably resolve matters is a sensible precaution anyway.

Thank you @TPWG I really appreciate you taking the time to reply, really useful to know

The independent surveyor we asked has had previous experience of neighbour's appointed surveyor and mentioned that in their experience, they have previously been lazy to act so advised calling in third surveyor should get ball rolling with final inspection. (I previously thought it was the neighbour avoiding inspection but now not entirely sure, I just want the inspection done so we don't have to fear neighbour dropping something else on us in a few weeks)

When you say my surveyor may feel defensive if I approach them directly, are you referring to me approaching third surveyor directly? We were planning to inform our surveyor of intention to speak to third surveyor before doing this so they are aware.

As far as evidence goes, we have endless evidence of communication with said neighbour (both party wall related and other matters) which does not paint them in a favourable light at all. Lots of threats of legal action, evidence of a falsified email from council (as mentioned in earlier post) together with empty promises from them. Emails and text messages also show how the damages they are claiming for keep changing

Also all communication with surveyor 18 months back where they told us they have requested inspection from neighbour's surveyor and we don't need to take further action

Ah.. a very few surveyors will just down tools if they've spent their fee time and it just looks like trouble ahead. You're yesterdays' job until the trouble looks like it's coming for them.

Yes I'd recommend just telling your surveyor you're going to approach the Third Surveyor for some guidance on how to resolve things, they probably know enough at this point to understand why, and being vague keeps it impersonal.

There's a line of thought that says if the neighbour won't put up they can shut up. But the reality is they don't seem to want to, and you want this over with. You don't want to be selling the house and have to declare there's an ongoing PW dispute to a potential purchaser either. So it's really about putting yourself in the best position to evidence there isn't an issue, or anything reasonably attributable to the works is resolved.

There is no recognised formal sign-off procedure as such for these matters, but if you can get to the point where there was an exchange of letters between surveyors saying they're not aware of any outstanding issues and are closing their files, that might be enough. If the other surveyor won't engage to try to reach that point, it's possible the 3rd surveyor would. But I would ask where they think the fees might sit for any proposed solutions.

Fingers crossed for you!

@neverendingpartywallproblems
If you read the Act and look at advice about party wall agreements, there is NO formal signing off procedure. They have their own surveyor so chasing up issues goes through their surveyor who checks photos - before and after. Personally I would ignore them. As the surveyors have not inspected, you just step back until they do. I don’t see this as a dispute either. The onus is on them to allow their surveyor in. Until they do, there are no formal steps to be taken. You had the required agreement. You had photos. You had Building regs etc. How would a third surveyor gain access? I’d see a solicitor though for advice. Obviously you don’t want a dispute but they haven’t raised one. They don’t seem to have done anything at all other then try and coerce you. Don’t engage.

Thank you both.

We approached our surveyor regarding involving third surveyor. We don't have any problems with our surveyor so there isn't a bad feeling about this and he instantly contacted the neighbour's surveyor to notify of our intention and request an update on the status of the inspection. We don't have fault with our surveyor at this point but he is receiving no communication from the neighbour's surveyor. @TPWG our latest communication indicates the third surveyor's fee at this stage is not something we are liable for but would be down to the neighbour's surveyor to pay as he has not fulfilled his obligation under the act or provided a reason for this not being done.

I agree @TizerorFizz that we do not have any formal dispute to document. Our issue is that we have our neighbour approaching us with regular issues they want us to resolve, there are relentless formal emails/letters requesting immediate response and they knock on our door asking us for an update. If we entertain them with a discussion, it goes on and on for ages because they don't shut up! There are no arguments or bad words spoken but it is a big waste of time and I should not have to fear answering my own front door in case they are there. Everything has to be on their terms - we must speak at a time convenient for them (but it is fine for them to ring our doorbell at a time inconvenient for us), we must reply to their communication in a certain timeframe (but it is fine for them to take weeks/months to reply to us). What is said in person is not reflected in writing too

I essentially want it in writing from their surveyor that the inspection has not been done because they are blocking access or have an inspection completed so we have it documented there are no outstanding issues as @TPWG said. (Any issues the inspection brings up, we will of course resolve.) If something came up at a later date which was clearly because of our work, we would resolve this but we don't want to hear any more nonsense about small cracks/cosmetic work/creaky floorboards etc

Don’t respond to emails. Do not respond to letters. Don’t open the door. They are harassing you! See a solicitor for advice on strategy regarding harassment. If their surveyor is not responding, what makes you think a third one would get any further? Would another surveyor get through the door? It will be more good money after bad. If they are not in contact with their surveyor, what can you realistically do? The law doesn’t extend to signing off formally. Just do not engage.

Except: Write to say that you are not engaging any more. Your surveyor wishes to hear from their surveyor and your surveyor will agree to any repairs on your behalf. Photographs, before and after, will be compared and the professional surveyors are responsible for this work. State clearly it is NOT you! You will not engage in any discussion about this face to face and not via any form of communication. Be firm and do not engage with them. The whole reason for the PW act was to stop this shit happening. Leave it to the professionals you have paid.

@TizerorFizz you have described our exact strategy for the past year but we are friendly and have niceties with other members of the household (and so do our young children) which gradually gets extended to said neighbour too and then ends up in a text/email/letter being sent to us regarding one matter or another. I can see we need to be more blunt to his email/letter/text and each time he attempts to start conversation, respond as you have suggested without any niceties or politeness.

I can completely see your point though and we have had the exact same outlook until now. My only hope with third surveyor involvement is that the threat of the fees will force neighbour's surveyor to admit that neighbour has blocked the inspection (so we have written confirmation neighbour's claim that surveyor asked us to resolve without said inspection are BS) or we will have the inspection done.

There is no such thing as a claim under the PW act - as such. It’s an agreement between the two surveyors regarding what repairs are needed as a result of your work. If any. It’s a professional agreement. What your neighbours want is for you to treat it as a “claim”. It’s not. The surveyors reach an agreement by discussion and evaluation of the before and after evidence. So just don’t engage. It’s nothing to do with you at this stage. Tell the matter is with your surveyor. There IS nothing else you can do but you need to extract yourself from thinking it is a claim. Your neighbour has no legal power and must agree to what is in the PWA over how agreements are reached. You should not allow yourself to be bullied. By engaging and thinking it’s a “claim” you are being bullied. They want money from you without going down the proper channels. Do not agree to it. Beats me how you can stay friendly.

Thank you @TizerorFizz. I did write a reply to you but did not post for some reason.

Neighbour is still on our case despite us instructing to discuss with surveyor, keeps messaging to ask how things can 'move forward'. Our replies are short and simple - we cannot progress without the final inspection so to discuss with surveyor.

Appreciate your advice, we are standing our ground. Neighbour has a way of trying to patronise us and speaking as though they are acting in our favour but we will not be budging this time. Reading through all the old emails and rubbish they put us through 2 years back reinforces this

I just think they are trying to get money out of you. So do stand firm.Good luck.

If they tried the small claims Court I think you have every reason to point at your efforts to resolve things through the PW process and their unwillingness to engage with it. Sensibly advised, they shouldn't try that route at this point, albeit people are not always sensible or willing to take advice.

The threat of an escalating dispute can be enough to wake a surveyor up. That said, given their behaviour with someone they're otherwise on reasonable terms with, we can't guess what their surveyor had to put up with in the background. He may feel he's done enough and told them he's shut the file, but that's no excuse for not engaging with you.

Fingers crossed for you.

If it makes you feel any better OP our neighbours surveyor wants nothing more to do with them and is no longer engaging in their ‘petty’/non-party wall related emails…

It happens!