Is this a planning thing?

[BewilderedByPurples]

Hi,
I own freehold of yellow and orange house (I have simplified a few details if any eager thread-watchers connect this with previous issues where I’m pleased to say we are making progress thanks to MN).
Purple house is the problem. It has 4 exits.
1 pedestrian and car via space labelled 1 at the back near house (by agreement, the terms of which we’ve got stricter on). This crosses our yard to an unadopted lane that leads to highway
2 pedestrian and car via space 2 and blue yard to other unadopted lane also to highway
3 pedestrian via private gate at rear to footpath that leads to highway
4 front door to street.

purple house has for over 20 years (probably much longer) had long-term lodgers, one set in attic, another on floor below. I know the house well as previous-purple’owners were close friends. Previous purples and their lodgers have always shared the one staircase and the front door. Only the owning family has ever used spaces 1,2 or 3.

Present purples inherited the house and live on ground and first floor. It can’t be ideal to share their space like this.

it’s become impossible not to notice that the purple owners now deliberately avoid using their own front door. So they park outside the house on the road at the front but then walk all the way round to entrance 1. What’s made it particularly obvious is that I have heard them telling their children not to use the front door. It probably adds an extra 3 minutes each way to their pedestrian school run as their school is in the direction on the right in the photo. Even exit 3 would avoid this, so there seems to be a deliberate desire to use exit 1 even if it inconveniences everyone.

Might it be that the purples want to establish some kind of long use to avoid having to get planning permission to convert the house into 3 self-contained flats, which would make it salable? I don’t care about that other than that the increase in pedestrian traffic through our yard (1) is really intrusive and I worry it could be a precursor to something worse (new house in the large back garden?)

Now you've described the full set up, I think you were mad to have given written permission for purple to continue to access car space 1 via your yard.
I thought purple House was a little cottage now it seems there is a family plus 2 sets of lodgers living there? That's a LOT of people!

To get planning permission 'by the back door', owners would have to demonstrate the the property was in continual use as separate dwellings for more than 4 years. Separate entrances could form part of this proof, along with sworn statements from any occupiers.

However there would also need to be separate kitchen and bathroom facilities for each unit - no shared facilities. Is this likely?

If it is, you could report to the planning Enforcement team that you think the property is being used either as an HMO or as separate dwellings without the benefit of PP and they will investigate. If found to be so, and it has been happening for less than 4 years, the Council could take enforcement action to stop it and/or the owners could submit a planning application by to rectify it the situation.

I've only skim read your post OP and not familiar with other posts but ...
regarding establishing rights and you giving written permission I believe I'm right in saying that granting permission is a good move because it can be withdrawn and stops people establishing rights by long use .
Permissive rights I think it comes under .

Try here
forums.landlordzone.co.uk/forum/planning-development-questions

or www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=a528b9428e3bbeab80bca8551670bee6

Apologies if I've got wrong end of stick .

Ive read your other post. Could the front door be blocked up now they have other ways out ? This and the other thread , seems like a nightmare, is there anyway long term to simplify the set up for access to the main road ?

it is a nightmare!

seeline, the top floor flat will, I think, be truly separate, with own facilities
the next flat down probably has top floor people going through the common staircase but yes will have own kitchen/bathroom.
Neither of those are a problem as it's always been this way and they use front door and always have. Neither of them are using entrance 1. Purples probably want their own "flat" to be only one using entrance 1.

damn and blast I really don't want to go the "enforcement" route!
Any advice seeline?

I don't care about purple flat being in use as a separate dwelling, but I do care about increase in traffic beyond what's agreed.

to put it another way, I don't care about purples not using their own front door but they have entrance 2 and 3 available... why not use those?

Regardless of the planning situation, I think YOU still have control over access over your land - it doesn't sound as though it is in either set of deeds? You have given (written?) permission for a specific level of use?

PP cannot force other landowners to comply with a permission - even if PP were granted showing all access over your land, you would still need to agree to that with the owner/applicant before it could happen (assuming hte right of way isn't in your deeds).

If it is in your deeds, then you or a solicitor would need to look very carefully at the wording to see if the right could be transferred to new properties.

thanks again for all the messages on this.

A question: is it harder nowadays to get a Victorian terraced house converted into flats (which is presumably what the purples want to do). They have such conversions on either side of them (which is why I own a freehold and have to deal with 999 year leaseholders).

I don't understand why they don't just apply for permission - is it that they would have to have a separate staircase?

No, if anything it is easier nowadays to get permission to split a house into flats because of the housing shortage and Councils' requirement to build more. The only thing which might be difficult from the planning side would be if the building was listed.

it's not listed though we are conservation.

purples really draw attention to themselves as their posh hobby involves head-to-toe specialist outfits. it's frankly disconcerting when they suddenly appear in our yard for no apparent purpose but to avoid their front door and it invites comment from visitors and embarrasses me.

it's such bizarre behaviour! I wonder if some other neighbour has been aggressive/has objected to the house being formally converted? or perhaps they are just confused as to the requirements?

I did follow the other thread too. Still dying to know about the posh hobby. Bee keepers? Not exclusively posh at all though. Polo ponies?

enjoy imagining frisky you haven't quite got it.

I think that now the parking issue is better (which is great, we feel much happier and are pleased they responded) it makes it more obvious that the weird front-door-avoidance is not in my imagination..... in fact I wonder whether the parking in our yard happened because they didn't want to park in front of their house because they didn't want to go through their front door.

It's utterly bizarre and I can't really see how it helps avoid planning permission though am happy to be educated.

I don't even particularly want to oppose their planning application if they make one, I just don't want this odd behaviour, it's like a parade.