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Original poster

Neighbours ceiling plaster falling down during our building work

26 replies

cinnabunbun · 21/06/2022 10:37

Help/advice please! Where do I stand in regards to repairs to a neighbour's property if it has been poorly maintained?

We live in an end of terrace house and are currently doing a full renovation, dormer loft and rear extension. We had a party wall agreement in place with our adjoining neighbour - he used our suggested surveyor. It showed that his house was in a poor state of repair.

When I say poor state of repair I really mean it. Holes in ceiling in one room, broken windows etc. He is a nice man and we've always been on polite but friendly terms. His business has really suffered under covid and he has very limited means. He has a dodgy rear extension that was already present over 10 yrs ago when we bought. It is a really makeshift looking thing with flaps of felt roof, no foundations, broken uPVC ramshackle windows etc. We have already had to plan in expensive work arounds involving valuable lost space in our extension to avoid any risk to his extension.

Sadly a section of the plaster in the ceiling of his original part of the house fell down over the weekend. Luckily no one was hurt. He sent photos to the party wall surveyor who then called me. Our builders and I rushed around to offer to help etc but they wouldn't let us in to help clean up. He is assuming that we will pay to have it replastered and redecorated because he thinks vibrations from our building work have caused it to happen.

There has been a lot of banging last week from our builders as they removed chimney breasts on the opposite side of our house (ie not on the party wall side) and they have been retiling our roof but the main steels for the extension are not even in yet and they haven't done any work actually on the party wall side.

I want to do right by him but it feels like if the plaster fell down on the opposite side of his house to where we were working it was probably very loose. The area of damage was basically next to his other party wall, not ours, but we are the ones doing noisy work. The houses were built in 1910 and maybe even banging a nail for a picture hook would cause this to happen?

The surveyor said he is happy to just document it for now, he doesn't think it needs an extra site visit to assess as there is a lot of detail in his original conditions survey.

Sorry for the length of this! My main question is, where do we stand? I'm happy to pay for any damage genuinely caused by my work but I'm worried about setting a precedent which would make me responsible for repairs that his house has needed for the last 20 years. What would you do?

OP posts:
BlanketsBanned · 21/06/2022 10:42

I would contact my insurance company and see what they advise, do you know if he has insurance, is this something you could ask him.

RedCarsGoFaster · 21/06/2022 10:45

I'd guess your neighbour will need to make a claim against the your builder's insurance, not yours.

If you have evidence of the poor repair of the neighbour's house, you might want to offer it to the builder / their insurance company.

SeasonFinale · 21/06/2022 10:47

BlanketsBanned · 21/06/2022 10:42

I would contact my insurance company and see what they advise, do you know if he has insurance, is this something you could ask him.

Insurance would not cover him for lack of maintenance.

However the argument would be but for the OP's works the plaster might not have fallen down at all. It would therefore be for the OP to prove it would gave fallen anyway which would be practically impossible and indeed might be cheaper to get your builder to replanted and repaint than to fight to prove otherwise.

SeasonFinale · 21/06/2022 10:48

grrr autocorrect have replaster

Original poster
cinnabunbun · 21/06/2022 11:01

Ah, so my neighbour would need to make a claim on my builder's insurance not mine? I don't know why but I didn't consider how insurance works in all this. I'm working with a reputable builder who has insurance etc. I just thought that party wall issues were separate.

How would the neighbour prove that our work cause the damage? Not that I'm trying to cheat him out of anything that is rightfully his. I'd happily pay for just this section but I've got a terrible worry that it might turn into one job after another because he hasn't maintained his house at all for so many years

OP posts:
Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 21/06/2022 11:09

I don’t know, but I think he would have to prove negligence or unreasonable force against your builder/ you? It’s ghastly when adjoining neighbours do noisy work, the other side gets a lot of disruption for no personal benefit, but if you have proceeded properly as it would appear you have, I’m not sure you are actually in the wrong.

as you say, it would be a nice neighbourly gesture to put this right, but you have to be very careful about admitting open ended responsibility. I’d delegate this totally to your builder and your surveyor. They are the professionals, you are paying them to deal with the work, and this is definitely part of their responsibility.

fruitbrewhaha · 21/06/2022 11:51

Just let the surveyor, builders and insurance companies work it out. You are best to leave it to the professionals (it's what you are paying them for) and also to remove yourself from any difficult conversations or fallout. Just say it's all out of your hands and being dealt with.

kirinm · 21/06/2022 11:58

A Party Wall agreement is different and I don't think your neighbour needs to prove anything. The condition of his property was noted at the time the party wall agreement was drawn up. Plaster has now fallen from his ceiling and unless you can prove otherwise, it is most likely a consequence of the work you're doing. Depending on the wording of the party wall agreement, he probably won't have to prove anything and you'll be responsible for compensating him.

The neighbour cannot be expected to go against the builder and it is really shitty of someone to suggest that. That builder could disappear in to thin air and then what, the neighbour has to suck up damage caused by the OP's damage because the builder is no longer. OP you could go against the builder but unless they've been negligent then you're not going to get anywhere but your neighbour has an agreement with you (think of it as a contract).

kirinm · 21/06/2022 12:06

If you have a party wall agreement, do you have a schedule of condition? It'll be for your surveyor to decide whether the work likely caused the damage so it is out of your hands in that respect. It isn't for the surveyor to pay for it though.

kirinm · 21/06/2022 12:12

Sorry for multiple messages but you're right, this isn't what insurance covers - your builders insurance could potentially cover a claim you make against them but you'd need to see the insurance.

The schedule of condition prepared as part of the agreement will help the surveyor decide if the work caused the damage.

Acaseofthemondays · 21/06/2022 12:25

He sounds like a chancer. If his ceiling was in such a bad state that the vibrations from your builder made it fail, then it would likely have already failed from walking on the floor above it.

Your building work may sound violent but if it was causing vibrations that bad it would have damaged other things too? I'd put my money on it being a bugger of a coincidence, or... it had a helping hand.

Acaseofthemondays · 21/06/2022 12:28

Additionally and this may have been suggested upthread, an independent, unbiased surveyor or insurance assessor needs to inspect it. Or Judge Judy.

kirinm · 21/06/2022 12:40

The party wall surveyor needs to inspect it! If you don't think they're independent, you shouldn't have agreed to their appointment.

Original poster
cinnabunbun · 21/06/2022 13:30

Party wall surveyor is definitely acting independently/impartially. He has said he will just document it for now. The pics sent by the neighbour were enough for him without him needing to do another on-site survey. Our builder has sent the surveyor photos of all the work done so far to show what stage we are at.

The surveyor did warn me in advance that the tiling in the neighbour's upstairs bathroom along our party wall line was in a very poor state, and that cracked tiles were likely when we put in our steels. So I've provisionally allowed a chunk of our contingency budget for retiling it for him. We weren't expecting the plaster to fall down in the ceiling of the opposite part of his house though.

The neighbour really is a nice guy, I don't think he is being a chancer about any of this and it must be miserable living next to a building site for what might be nearly 6 months. Ugh.. it's just all very awkward. I'll try to defer to the professionals as much as possible

OP posts:
MrsMoastyToasty · 21/06/2022 13:37

It will probably be a requirement of his buildings insurance that he keeps the fabric of his property in a reasonable state of repair. The fact that he hadn't suggests they probably won't pay out.
FWIW our next door neighbour took out their side of the chimney breasts and put in RSJs to support the chimney stack. It didn't bring down our lathe and plaster ceilings. Likewise when we extended and knocked through.

ColourFan · 21/06/2022 13:52

The houses were built in 1910 and maybe even banging a nail for a picture hook would cause this to happen?
My house is 1900s and no, a picture hook wouldn’t cause that to happen.

The surveyor did warn me in advance that the tiling in the neighbour's upstairs bathroom along our party wall line was in a very poor state, and that cracked tiles were likely when we put in our steels.
The tiles were cracked due to your building work so it’s reasonable to believe that the plastered ceiling also was. It would be one unbelievably timed coincidence for it to fall down for any other reason right now.

Plastering a patch of ceiling is hardly going to cost you a lot in proportion to what you’re spending overall. He’s put up with the disruption of your building works. If it was me then morally I would sort it.

Original poster
cinnabunbun · 21/06/2022 14:10

Just to clarify, nothing has happened in his bathroom or anywhere else in his house. I just mentioned the bathroom because the surveyor said that when the steels would go in, there was a risk that cracks could happen

OP posts:
cstaff · 21/06/2022 14:13

So do you think it's OK that he has to do a replastering job at his own cost which wouldn't be necessary if you weren't getting work done on your house.

Original poster
cinnabunbun · 21/06/2022 14:14

Yes, morally I want to do the right thing by him and I'm sure me paying our builder a bit extra to replaster and paint one but if the neighbour's ceiling makes more sense than solicitors, insurance claims etc etc. I'm just not sure where to draw the line. His house is literally broken and falling apart already, it seems my building work may well be the straw that broke the camels back

OP posts:
Original poster
cinnabunbun · 21/06/2022 14:19

I'm also wondering how long a time period in general I would be classed as liable for any damage to his property. If chunks of his old plaster fall down a year after the building work is finished, could he still say that it was weakened by the work I have done next door? And would me offering to pay for things now set a precedent for future repairs too? His house is literally falling apart already before the work started as no repairs/maintenance have been done in there for ages

OP posts:
Original poster
cinnabunbun · 21/06/2022 14:22

I really want to do the right and fair thing by him. We encouraged him to have the survey in the first place as we knew his extension looked very fragile and we wanted to know how to protect it as best as possible

OP posts:
ColourFan · 21/06/2022 14:39

I'm just not sure where to draw the line.
I can see why you want to know how long in the future you’d be liable for. But in the present day I feel like you’re making worry for yourself. The line has already been drawn, no? As in he’s only mentioned the plaster, he hasn’t presented you with a list.

kirinm · 21/06/2022 15:11

Have you seen the schedule of condition? Weren't these issues raised then?

It is 6 years you're potentially liable for.

SausageAndCash · 21/06/2022 15:50

I think your neighbour should contact his insurance co.

They will then decide how to proceed and who / whose insurance to pursue.

LondonNQT · 21/06/2022 17:25

Some very strange advise here OP - we went through similar with our build but with separate surveyors. Their house had been shoddily extended and flipped but reasonably well maintained since.

Defer entirely to the party wall surveyor - this is precisely what they are there for. There is not liability on your side for an extended period of time and certainly not 6 years plus! Once all your works are complete the party wall surveyor will return for another visit. At this point they will document all the new cracks/damage which have appeared since you started work. If you had separate surveyors they would need to agree this between them or it would go to a third surveyor. As you’ve just used one it’ll be more straightforward.

If the party wall surveyor believes, in their professional opinion, that your works caused the damage you must ‘make good’ the issue. If the party wall surveyor does not believe your works caused this then, I believe, your neighbour would need to take you to court over this if they feel it has.

From a moral/maintaining good neighbourly relations point of view you may well decide to repair the ceiling in any case (which is largely where we found ourselves). Commit to nothing now. Wait until the final visit from your party wall surveyor and decide from there.