What can you do to a listed property without permission?

[Flymeaway4]

We own a grade 2 listed property that we are currently in the process of renovating. It’s not been lived in for 30 years, is pretty dilapidated and needs major repair work. We have planning permission and listed building consent for the major works, eg. Rear kitchen extension, re-roofing, Helifix as structural repairs, few rear rooflights etc but it is also lacking any major services; it has some electrics, but will need to be rewired, no plumbing (never had any), no kitchen or bathroom etc.

On our PP and LBC we have rooms listed as kitchen, bedroom, bathroom, ensuite etc. but we don’t have specific permission for where we’d like plumbing and electrics to go: do we need this? What about for where baths/showers/sinks will go? What about things like putting tiles down in a bathroom or wooden floor/carpets anywhere? Extractor fans and vent tiles in bathrooms/kitchen? Fitted wardrobes? Painting or wallpaper?

I appreciate the best idea is probably to ask the council, but I’ve been emailing and leaving answerphone messages for our Conservation Officer about a structural repair that is pretty urgent (roof is now exposed and can’t be tiled again until it’s sorted) and she’s just not getting back to us, so I’ve got no hope of her responding about this!

IME grade 2 is more structural, retaining features. Grade 1 you're fucked if you want to do anything.

Have you got a builder / architect / Pm who can advise or are you doing it yourselves?

We have a 'locally listed' property in a conservation area which doesn't actually mean much in law but the council stipulates we cannot do anything to the front unless like for like.

Are you members of the Listed Property Owners Club? They have a really helpful advice line who will go through all this with you.

The short answer is quite a lot as long as it is like for like and using appropriate materials and techniques. So - putting in a new kitchen = fine. Putting in a new extraction fan that goes through the wall = not fine. My guess is that your structural repair and retiling of the roof would not need consent as it falls under general maintenance as long as you are using like for like (or returning to appropriate if it was done with inappropriate materials before) but this is the sort of thing your builder or LPOC can tell you.

You should have hired builders that are experienced in Listed Properties of your type so they can advise you - if they aren't listed property builders you need new ones.

As you are finding out, many conservation departments have been shredded and the conservation officers are not going to give you on-going advice on your project in the way they did in the past.

This is a really good PDF from Historic England, towards the end there is a table listing what does and doesn't need consent.
historicengland.org.uk/images-books/publications/listed-building-consent-advice-note-16/heag304-listed-building-consent/

We have got an architect, that’s a good idea, I might try them. The actual building work we are doing ourselves (well, sourcing trades ourselves and using skilled family members) due to the massive rise in cost of everything recently.

No, we’re not members, I’d not heard of it, but I will look into it, thanks!

So where do we stand with something like bathroom tiles? They don’t exist already, so we can’t replace like for like. Do we need specific permission, or if we protect the existing fabric (counter board on top of the existing floor boards before tiling perhaps?), then do we not?

I have a friend in planning, so I know they are very short staffed now. I’m not quite sure where that leaves us though, as we can’t wait 12 weeks for them to approve/deny an application. The longer we leave it the more chance of damage to the remaining structure and, it’ll become more of a H&S hazard (severely rotten A-frame in the roof, now further exposed since the tiles were removed). Do we just go ahead with what we deem the best solution and hope they approve retrospectively?

Thanks @SunnydayeverythingsAOK

My LPOC membership has been totally worth it! They also send you a load of helpful factsheets out which I have found a lot easier than the SPAB ones, but then, I'm not a builder so need it explaining in v simple terms.

They have articles in every magazine of people who have done their own restorations like you are planning so I'm sure they would love to answer your questions.

Paint and wallpaper are fine. As I understand it, if you are making changes o the fabric of the building that is not a like for like replacement then you should get permission. If you are tiling, what was on the floor before?

What is the surface you want to tile? How much damage would be caused and would you be able to put it back to how it was if you need to?

I would also recommend the "period property forum" ( Google it) . Lots of people who are renovating listed buildings on there and lots of advice for when you discover damp somewhere.

There is nothing there currently, just floorboards. I guess the only way to avoid damaging g them would be to put another layer of board down and tile that?! I'll have a look at the period property forum too, thank you

If you check out your listing you can see what's been 'listed'. I also recommend the Listed Property Owner's club, especially for insurance.

Worst case scenario is that you could be made to "put it right". In ours we have just boarded with marine ply and are planning to tile on top.

@Salome61 this is something that a lot of people misunderstand. The description in the listing is just to correctly identify the building. Everything within the house and garden which is part of the fabric of the building is protected by the listing.

I agree @Geneticsbunny, we didn't fully understand that until we wanted to put the Aga in just after we moved in, but luckily the range wasn't original, and the Aga fitted the space available.

We had our listed II for twenty years. When I was 59 my husband died and I had to selI as I couldn't afford the ongoing maintenance, and the slate roofs were at the end of their 172 year life. I did consider getting a life time mortgage for the roof replacement which had been quoted at £40K, but as a railway station I would have also had to pay to stop the trains whilst the scaffolding was being installed at the back. The sash windows also needed doing, the man that came to quote never got back to me and it was just embarrassing chasing him in the end. A friend said he just didn't want the job. I knew I couldn't afford Ventrolla.

After two years on the market I ended up selling for peanuts to a developer and I don't think he understood the listing. He did tell my neighbours he was going to restore it 'to its former glory'. Two years later nothing has been done and the house is standing empty.

@Salome61 sorry misunderstood you. Yes they can be beautiful moneypits. Ounds like you did the sensible thing moving out when you did and hopefully the developer won't be able to do any damage.

Yes @Geneticsbunny, I did the sensible thing and downsized last March to a 1930's bungalow, my young adult kids were VERY upset I sold but eventually accepted it. Very difficult to adjust to living in this small characterless space but bills are smaller etc - then the flat roof was blown off the lounge/kitchen extension in Storm Arwen. I had water pouring in for ten weeks! Ha ha I'd been worried about it happening at the station for years especially Dennis in 2018, I could hardly believe it had happened in a building half its age. Luckily insurance eventually paid out for a like for like replacement - £11,500 inc VAT.

[quote SunnydayeverythingsAOK]This is a really good PDF from Historic England, towards the end there is a table listing what does and doesn't need consent.
historicengland.org.uk/images-books/publications/listed-building-consent-advice-note-16/heag304-listed-building-consent/[/quote]
THe booklet linked here, especially the table at the end is very good.

Basically because every LB is individual, there is rarely a blanket 'yes, that would be fine' situation. But basically anything that might effect the historic fabric of the building is likely to need LBC.

The best way is to try and get the Conservation Officer to visit and then take them round explaining everything you want to do and they can then say what they would like a LBC application for.

You are able to undertake emergency repairs to prevent further damage to historic structure without prior permission in place. I can’t remember the details, but I’m sure LPOC will be able to advise. I think you have to inform council of your intent before starting, and use traditional materials, etc, then apply retroactively.