Does anyone live in a listed building?

[Pleasedontdothat]

If so, how difficult is it to do things to the house? We’re viewing a lovely-looking house in a couple of days which ticks lots of boxes. However it’s got 6 bedrooms (more than we need really) but only one bathroom and a shower room. It’s grade 2 listed - does that mean that things like putting in a new bathroom are out? Any other differences we should be aware of?

I don't live in a listed building but I understand it depends on what's actually listed. You'll also need to do any works as approved by a conservation officer as far as I know. Can be very costly as they may insist on materials in keeping with the period.

I do, in Scotland, it depends the reason for the listing & what you want to do.
For example I had to get permission to paint our front door.

Hello! I'm in a listed Tudor house. There are quite a few useful groups on Facebook if you're on there. The usual advice I'd give (and so would others) is not to buy a listed building unless you love it as it is, as the whole point of listing is to preserve the historical value of a rare building.

Putting in a bathroom is especially tricky as it involves some big pipes such as a soil pipe which would need to go though the walls or floor, and it's the original fabric of a building that the listing is designed to protect.

There's generally a bit of pragmatism – I've got a bathroom, which the original Tudor cottage would not have had, and central heating ditto, and electricity – but it's around necessity, not preference.

The other mistake people make is thinking that only the things on the listing (which you can check at the Heritage England website) matter: in fact, it's the whole building plus curtilage, which means that you need permission for things that in unlisted houses come under permitted development.

Depending on the age of the house, you'll also almost certainly need to learn a bit about traditional building techniques and start finding tradespeople who understand them. Cement plaster and modern paints (both of which weren't commonly used until the 1930s) are very bad for old buildings.

I do and we’re currently applying for permission to move a bathroom and kitchen. Pre-app advice has been that it should be ok so it can be done (hopefully)! But we’ve put a lot of thought into how to do it without too much damage to the historic fabric of the building.

PP’s advice about not buying unless you love it as it is is good, as you can’t guarantee you’ll be able to make the changes you want. But it’s not impossible For us apparently it’s helped that we’re also making positive changes- taking out various dodgy things done in the 90s pre-listing.

Bear in mind that any works are likely to cost more than they would in a newer unlisted building.

Yep. I do and just wanted to highlight that as the previous poster says everything within the garden walls including the walls /fencing and any outbuildings is part of the listing and also any crappy non suitable work done previously becomes your legal responsibility as soon as you own the building. I.e. you could be prosecuted for putting in double glazing without permission even if it was done years ago by someone else. Obviously not an issue if you are prepared to fix it once you are in but worth being aware of as this sort or repair work can be very expensive.

Adding a bathroom probably wouldn't be an issue as long as you aren't destroying any internal features of historic interest and the extra external pipes are minimised.

@Geneticsbunny

Yep. I do and just wanted to highlight that as the previous poster says everything within the garden walls including the walls /fencing and any outbuildings is part of the listing and also any crappy non suitable work done previously becomes your legal responsibility as soon as you own the building. I.e. you could be prosecuted for putting in double glazing without permission even if it was done years ago by someone else. Obviously not an issue if you are prepared to fix it once you are in but worth being aware of as this sort or repair work can be very expensive.

No you can’t be prosecuted. The offence is by the person who did it or who supported them doing it Ie builders. No offence is by someone else. What they can get is enforcement to fix it.

I do. Our Listed Planning officer at the council said to remember his mantra, if any work on the house is needed you're exchanging "like for like".
New front door? Got to be the same.
Replacement window? Got to be made the same.
Replastering? Lime plaster goes back on.
However, we did get permission for a small extension as long as it was in keeping with the original building, and of course even though it's only a few years old it becomes "listed" too.

historicengland.org.uk/advice/hpg/uwandhc/offences/#Section1Text
This website provides useful advice around who can be prosecuted. The owner can be held responsible for restoration of works even if they were undertaken by previous owners.

@Takingabreakagain

historicengland.org.uk/advice/hpg/uwandhc/offences/#Section1Text This website provides useful advice around who can be prosecuted. The owner can be held responsible for restoration of works even if they were undertaken by previous owners.

Yes, but they cannot be criminally prosecuted for making the change, the offence is with the person who did it, and those who helped. Not someone who later bought it.

Grade 2 - you can do a lot but have a serious look at the building.

I live in a Grade 2 listed building and it's not a problem to do 99% of the stuff I want because it's obvious what is an original feature - the walls - and what isn't - everything else. Nobody minds you replacing a 1970s door!

However you do have to be careful about materials and will become prone to having long conversations about lime plaster and letting houses breathe

I've stayed in B&Bs that were Grade 2* that had all the rooms en suite. They certainly weren't built that way in the 1700s so it is possible with appropriate advice and planning. Main issue is you have to use specialist builders who are 1. expensive and 2. busy so there is a long wait to get anything done.

The vast majority of conservation officers are pragmatic. the best way to ensure the survival of a historic building is to ensure it's continued viable use and that is what they strive to achieve. you will however need listed building consent for any alterations, which is time consuming, may well need very specific detail on materials and methods and inevitability expensive (although the application for LBC itself is free, plans etc will not be)

if you rally against what you might view to be petty, bureaucratic and unnecessary rules then you can quickly fall out of love with a listed building. if you go into it with a level of understanding and appreciation of why those rules exist and the benefit of them it it can be rewarding and educational. only you know which side you are likely to fall on

oh and Anniefrench fry is wrong

Thanks everyone - parts of the house go back to the fifteenth century but it’s had a lot of alterations in the past. I suspect the practicalities will end up outweighing the lovely bits! Lots of food for thought ..

Quote from Historic England "As well as prosecuting any breaches of the law protecting listed buildings the local planning authority may also issue a listed building enforcement notice with the purpose of restoration or alleviating the effects of the unlawful works (6). Failure to comply with a valid listed building enforcement notice is itself an offence with potentially an unlimited fine that must take into account any financial gain (7). In this case the offence is committed by the owner for the time being of the listed building and not the person who carried out the unconsented works.

So owners must appeal or comply with listed building enforcement notices even if the works were carried out by a previous owner or they risk committing a criminal offence."
Hopefully this helps clarify what can be enforced against an owner and what happens if they fail to comply.

Grade 2 is not all hat strict, but check what the building is listed for before you buy

@WhoppingBigBackside

Grade 2 is not all hat strict, but check what the building is listed for before you buy

If a building is listed it doesn't matter what is in the list description, all parts of the building and it's curtilage are covered by the listing. Even if you want to change a modern addition it's likely listed building consent would be needed.

Yes, but they are not terribly strict for Grade II. I no longer live in a listed building , but they would let you do things.

One thing to consider is that when you come to sell, a lot of people are put off, because they think it's going to be a nightmare, and it isn't

I live in a listed building but it's it's block of flats. I deal with listed buildings a lot for work though. Check the English heritage website, there is a search function/map that shows every listed property and a description of why it is listed.

My building, for example, is listed primarily because of the front facade and the columns/portico at the entranceway. So although we would need permission to do anything around the back like change a window into a door (which has been done) it isn't a big deal as it doesn't affect the areas identified as being important for the character of the building. This would also be true for internal alterations.
Some properties that are tudour for example would have issues with internal renovation as some beams might be important.

Check the description for your property and you could also phone the councils heritage officer for advice. Could also get in touch with a local architect with a specialist in conservation. It's also worth checking the planning history for the property to see if anything has been done or permission attempted in the past.

We do - only can’t make changes to outside with ours

Only issue we had so far was the bloody sash windows they need to be replaced in the bedrooms and they are so expensive 🙈🙈

Another problem we had was we needed to get a extraction fan in kitchen - we were told no - but we argued the point about there being no ventilation in kitchen and eventually we got the go ahead - the hole in wall is on side of house so not seen from the road

IME a lot depends on the local authority officer concerned. We had one who was pragmatic and took the view that replacing like-for-like kitchens & bathrooms didn’t need consent. The council also said that on their website.

But his successor enjoyed throwing her weight around and started saying every alteration needed consent. So it can depend.

Lots of conservation departments have been cut to the bone with austerity. We used to be able to phone up for advice - no more! It's make an application or nothing.

However there are a lot of other useful sources of advice such as SPAB, Listed Property Owners Club, Facebook Groups and you v soon get the hang of what they are and aren't going to be interested in for your building.

Planning permission website is also v helpful as usually yours won't be the only listed building in the street. Gives you are very good idea of what is being approved and how people are going about it. I nicked most of my application wording from the house next door and drew my own diagrams.