Can we talk about EPC certificates and insulation etc

[Notcontent]

I have been reading a that the government is thinking of introducing measures to force all home owners to have an epc rating of at least C.

This is a very good idea in theory but I wonder what it will mean for all the period houses that are very difficult to insulate - e.g. in London there are whole areas where 90% of the houses are Victorian or even Georgian terraces.

I live in a small Victorian terrace. It was in a pretty bad state when I bought it and I didn’t pay much attention to the epc rating as I just needed a house I could afford. But just checked and it’s D - but also says the potential for it is D too? Very confused.

I recently renovated the house and did look at improving it’s energy efficiency but the measures suitable were quite limited. Have double glazing now and the small extension has insulation to building standards, as well as roof insulation. But nothing could be done to the original walls. I don’t know what the current rating is but could still be D. But there is literally nothing more I could do to improve it…

Has anyone looked into this?

So just me worrying about the EPC rating of my house??

I don't know what mine is, though as it is a 1930s detached I suspect it is D or E, anyone who bought before 2007 would not have had to get an EPC when buying, I am not doing anything at the moment as these things often get pushed back and diluted when government realise it is an impossible task.

I think someone worked out how many billions it would take to bring tenement property in a part of Glasgow up to modern spec. The EPC rating calculations are really complicated and the subsequent recommendations are often wholly unrealistic. They're not exhaustive but suggest a limited range of possible improvements many of which will not be cost effective. A bit of arithmetic tells you it would take tens or in some cases hundred of years to recoup the installation costs in energy saving. A bit of common sense tells you that the items in question - say a modern gas boiler or double glazing,will have failed long before you recoup the costs. People are less likely to be put off low EPC performance in period property and there already are exceptions for some conservation area/historic buildings.

Not sure where you read it, but according to publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/58-02/0150/210150.pdf
"Force" is not the right word, since it's optional, and only encouraged if it would cost under 20k to do, although your mortgage may be more expensive after 2030.

It worries me too, as the soon-to-be owner of a listed building. I think we will see many more scandals like the one in Wales that hit the news recently. Old homes and modern energy efficiency measures are sometimes horribly incompatible.

Cavity wall insulation 'a scandal', Arfon MP claims www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-39602540

My limited understanding of EPc is that the assessor can only give you points (or how ever they do it) for what they can actually see/prove.

We bought a Victorian terrace last year and the EPC is crap. We have since done a loft conversion so I’m hoping the building reg sign off would be enough to increase the rating due to the better insulation in the loft. But I certainly won’t be worrying about it yet.

The word force was used in the article I read in one of the papers, probably to dramatise it, these sort of thing just usually make mortgages more difficult to get.

Half the country won't have had an ECP anyway so would have no clue of their rating

EPCs were a box ticking exercise imposed by the EU, and it’s time we dumped them.
Box ticking ? My house is drowning in loft insulation, (I put it there), but as I’ve boarded the loft (even better insulation), it can’t be seen, so according to my EPC surveyor, has to be assumed ‘not to exist’.
Likewise I have the thickest carpet underlay I could find, 100% wool carpets, and expensive heavy lined curtains - but there is no box to tick for such worthwhile energy saving measures. But, have an non LED lightbulb in a box-room you never used, and your EPC will be downgraded.
My EPC jobsworth recommended I install ‘solar water heating’, (I live in one of the least sunniest parts of the UK), with a payback time of TWO HUNDRED YEARS !
It’s nonsense on stilts.

Yanbu op. I'm concerned about this too. Not sure if it will be pushed back.
From 2025 all rentals will need grade c for new tenancies. I think that will mean an increase in homelessness as landlords will sell up.

If they insist on such measures then they will need to make epc's fit for purpose. At the moment they are useless, possibly even damaging, for older homes. I refuse to wreck my home by having some idiot inject insulation which will mean it can't breathe and quickly becomes damp. Imagine what horrible chemicals must be in that stuff anyway.

They'd also have to help out with funding as, like with electric vehicles, I'd gladly have solar panels if I could afford them. It would be better to concentrate on the production and storage of cleaner energy for all in the first place really.

There are so many aspects of a homes energy efficiency that EPCs take no account of.
Take two otherwise IDENTICAL houses, 1) a south facing house in Devon. 2) a north facing house in Shetland. As they are ‘identical’ they would both have the same EPC - yet the Devon house would benefit from so much ‘free’ sun energy, that EPCs take no account of.

I'm sure some in government will see this as a money making exercise and there will be a few contracts for mates to be had.

rental properties are suppose to be a C by 25 - as many many of them are on the cheaper end because that is what is needed.
If properties are forced to comply landlords will drop out or outprice those on the lowest income & the government will not build enough to supply that group nor will they pay enough UC or whatever to help them pay the extra
Insulation is not the catch all what is is alternative countrywide source of cheap affordable energy & something the blessed government cannot get their head around.
green or blue hydrogen we have yet to figure out
nuclear energy that we are incredibly far behind in developing
wind power that has been erratic this year
& expensive solar panels that you have to have a roof facing the right direction or the right type of roof
etc etc
& each new type costs the home owner far more than it can possibly save

Sacada That's 100% not true for new builds and conversions and see no reason why it would be any different for existing buildings.

And of course assessors need to have evidence - that's the rules of the scheme and they can't just take the word of someone with a vested interest. Perhaps people will start to think (and ask) how they can provide evidence when they do relevant work if they want it counted.

The truth is that many older dwellings are no longer fit for purpose as fossil fuel heating comes to an end. Best get out now before the property price plummets to a point where developers move in to knock it down and build anew. Or wait for nuclear and/or hydrogen or a new technology to save the day. It's not really the government that's driving this. It is, as always, financiers. Institutional investors don't want to lend on potentially worthless stock. Already seeing demands for spec ahead of building regs on JV private rental sites which is unheard of. But the PE firms don't want to be stuck with stock that won't sell in 5 or 10 years. How valuable is a current D or E rated house going to be then when compared with houses built to Part L 2021 or 2025? Will they even be a D rating at the time the EPC needs renewing if gas becomes more penalising than electricity in the assessment calculations, as has been the case the other way around for years?

EPCs won't disappear. Or if they do, they will be replaced by something that will still show houses with large heat losses and carbon intensive space & water heating to be unattractive to purchasers or renters.

Interesting - thank you. I forgot about the change in rules for landlords from 2025. I had a look online and I don’t think any houses in my street have a rating of C. And most of them are very nice homes, and currently get snapped up very quickly when they go on sale or rental market. I wonder what will happen.

@AyeRobot

Sacada That's 100% not true for new builds and conversions and see no reason why it would be any different for existing buildings.

And of course assessors need to have evidence - that's the rules of the scheme and they can't just take the word of someone with a vested interest. Perhaps people will start to think (and ask) how they can provide evidence when they do relevant work if they want it counted.

The truth is that many older dwellings are no longer fit for purpose as fossil fuel heating comes to an end. Best get out now before the property price plummets to a point where developers move in to knock it down and build anew. Or wait for nuclear and/or hydrogen or a new technology to save the day. It's not really the government that's driving this. It is, as always, financiers. Institutional investors don't want to lend on potentially worthless stock. Already seeing demands for spec ahead of building regs on JV private rental sites which is unheard of. But the PE firms don't want to be stuck with stock that won't sell in 5 or 10 years. How valuable is a current D or E rated house going to be then when compared with houses built to Part L 2021 or 2025? Will they even be a D rating at the time the EPC needs renewing if gas becomes more penalising than electricity in the assessment calculations, as has been the case the other way around for years?

EPCs won't disappear. Or if they do, they will be replaced by something that will still show houses with large heat losses and carbon intensive space & water heating to be unattractive to purchasers or renters.

Are you suggesting that the hundreds of thousands of houses in London will get bulldozed and replaced by new houses?

It's not definite that a C rating will be required by law, but even if it's not, the market will move to make it happen. Many developers are now future - proofing conversions to C ratings where previously they did everything as cheaply as possible and didn't give a stuff about running costs for the occupier. If don't do anything about D or below rated dwellings there will come a time when the value has dropped sufficiently that the cost of upgrades makes sense. Very interesting (and worrying) times ahead for a lot of people.

I’m worried about this. Was telling dh earlier. We live in a Victorian semi. The only way we’d get it to C is by insulating it. Which would pro make the damp problem even worse. 🤷‍♀️ And cost on average 18k for external insulation. No way am I fucking about with the upheaval of internal insulation. All the redecorating and electrics to be sorted!

Guess it’s not a problem unless you want to sell. I really think the price of older houses is going to fall due to this.

Friend of mine has an older house which she has decided to rent. She’s just spent thousands installing central heating to improve her rating only to be told the rating requirement for rented houses will soon be changing again. So she will need to do more. But it’s a listed building and she’s not even allowed double glazing!

Yes, I think that a lot of poorer housing stock all over the country will become unviable in time. And it might well be sooner than everyone thinks. In an industry that's notoriously tight fisted, acceptance of the need for change has come remarkably quickly and quietly.

I think something like 50% of homes are over a certain age and are therefore considered old. I suspect they will just make some concessions for older homes.

Already seeing demands for spec ahead of building regs on JV private rental sites which is unheard of.

Not really. The institutions you’re talking about all signed up to the Better Buildings Partnership Climate Change Commitment c27 months ago, so it’s not been unheard of for some time.

The regulatory environment is absolutely driving this, that’s what concerns institutional investors. No one wants to be left holding stranded assets.

Knocking down obsolete buildings simply creates a new embodied carbon problem.

The government will not be coming after home owners in the near term to force upgrades on them. Current MEES rules make it relatively straight forward to get an exemption on the grounds of cost or payback, plus EPCs need to be overhauled as they have strange measurement quirks that work against certain net zero initiatives such as heat pumps.

Yes, whole life carbon will overtake epcs in time, I think, although the EPC methodology is being worked on at the moment, I believe. And, yes, of course it's driven by regulation, but there's no going back on that in terms of fossil fuels I don't think (tho never say never!), especially now because affordability of running costs is such an issue. But no one's coming after owner-occupiers!

There won't be enough heat pumps or installers anyway

I don’t see how whole life carbon can replace EPCs as that would mean your 1890 Victorian terrace is streets ahead of a new build in terms of carbon intensity. The embodied aspect outstrips operational by some margin.

Technology is changing quite quickly so I have every faith there’s some clever boffins who will soon figure out how to safely insulate old, permeable buildings.

It doesn’t seem feasible to me at all. Even if all the landlords in the UK were willing to spend £10k on EPC measures (ROI being upwards of 10 years) there isn’t the labour around to do it. Plus you’d have to kick out many of the tenants in order to do the work - and where would they go? The Green Homes Grant scheme was a fiasco. If the government was keen on us insulating our homes more it would remove VAT on insulation materials. Insulation attracts a 20% uplift but betting doesn’t? They need to get their priorities right.