Damp Survey - Uncertain and a bit annoyed

[DampConfusion]

Will try to keep this as concise as possible... I'm buying a small victorian terrace (it's Grade II listed). It hasn't been particularly well cared for and has what appears to be significant damp problems. It is solid floor construction with no cellar so there aren't any airbricks as there is nothing underneath. The Estate Agent was upfront that basically the sellers had been renting it and they can't continue to rent it in the current condition, but don't want to fork out the £5K or so required to sort the damp problem.
I currently live in a Victorian Terrace and had some damp problems diagnosed when we bought it by a damp surveying company only to find out later that rising damp etc is largely a load of bologne.

I made sure to hire an independent damp surveyor this time as I didn't want to be sold things we didn't need although in this instance it's clear that there are damp problems. So there are three main areas of concern to me.

1. The front wall of the house has been diagnosed with "rising damp". I personally put this down to the fact that the front elevation has at some point been repointed with cement and also you can see the interior has been replastered with gypsom which can be seen because the wall paper is peeling off. I fully thought the surveyor would recommend repointing and replastering with lime, but she's actually recommended a damp proof course (DPC).
2. There is damp on the chimney breast and alcoves around in the same room (it's the front lounge). She also diagnosed rising damp in this instance and has recommended a DPC. I have no idea what's causing this and I'm wondering what others might think on this in particular.
3. At the back of the property there is moisture coming in at the back wall. My husband and I could see that this is caused because there is a gap in this place where the attached shed adjoins the property. She apparently couldn't access the back of the property because the gate was locked. I'm pretty annoyed to be honest, as it was definitely not locked as I've accessed it 3 times. The property is empty and the gate doesn't have a lock...

I think I'm just utterly confused because I wasn't expecting her to recommend a DPC as I thought the property needed to breath and that they were generally something that was mis-sold by damp companies. I'm going to ring her to discuss in further and also have a chat with the conservation team at the council because I know they do not particularly like chemically injected DPCs on these properties. I think no matter the problem, there will be considerable money needing spent to sort it, but I don't want to ruin the building with a DPC. I'd like to restore the property as sympathetically as possible. Looking for advice. Maybe @pigletjohn has some knowledge here! Happy to provide more photos and/or information. I'm not even quite sure what questions to ask the surveyor...

Sorry here is a link the property which has decent photos showing the issues, but happy to provide more as needed!

www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/113395340#/?channel=RES_BUY

Has she recommended a proper DPC, or a chemical one?

I’m also surprised that she has recommended that over repointing with lime - that was what the three damp surveyors we had look at our Victorian house recommended, they were all certain that it was the way forward.

@TakeYourFinalPosition I think so? I'm not actually 100% sure of the difference. Are you in West Yorkshire? I may need a second opinion surveyor! I'm just utterly confused and particularly annoyed that she couldn't get the back gate open when I know there is no lock.

On another note, I'm just glad she told me I probably didn't need a full survey as we were planning to fully renovate and it probably wouldn't be useful to us. This survey isn't particularly useful to us so I'm glad I didn't bother with the other one!

@TakeYourFinalPosition not sure how easy it is to read the attachment.

Or what happened with my username! 🙈🤣

What a surprise that an "independent damp surveyor" recommends silicone injections for everything.

Maybe your district is different, but I think I have only seen Victorian terraces that were originally built with wooden floors with a ventilated void beneath. A original floor in the kitchen will often be quarry tiles or flags on earth, so easy to dig up, not a concrete slab.

When these have been replaced with concrete it is generally because of long-term damp causing rot. Annoyingly it is much harder to find a source of water when if has been buried under a slab of concrete.

The chimneybreast may be either a flue that needs to be ventilated top and bottom, or a hearthstone standing on a mass or rubble that is highly absorbent of water. When first built, a constant fire would keep them warm and dry. The rubble can be dug out after breaking the hearthstone.

Sometimes there are old waterpipes from a back boiler that are leaking. This is quite rare now as most old plumbing has been replaced.

The ground floor front wall looks wet and although the pic avoids showing it, I think the pavement has probably been raised from its original level and is helping water enter the wall. This will be worse if the gutter is dripping or the downpipe discharges onto the pavement.

Try to work out where the incoming water supply pipe runs. It is pretty sure to be a straight line between the stopcock or meter in the pavement, and the place where the kitchen sink used to be when the house was built.

Do you know what year the house was built? In London DPCs became compulsory in 1875.

Hi 👋🏻 @PigletJohn We live just up the road and our house is wooden floors with a void underneath. This house was built with flags over the earth below. The whole village was built like that although some of the properties do have cellars (this one doesn't). I pulled up a corner of the carpet in the front room but found it difficult to tell if the original flags were there or if they'd been removed and had concrete poured. I wanted to pull it up more but the estate agent was right there. There was an area in the kitchen where the washing machine was which appeared to have some kind of "screed" on the floor.
I'm not 100% sure if the year built but could probably find out as it's a historic area. The Estate Agent said the street level had been raised over time which was contributing to the damp but it didn't seem that high to me... and it's still cobblestone so I was kind of perplexed by this.

@PigletJohn do you think a DPC could be appropriate? Or better to get to the root of the problem?
Also, if the flags have all been lifted and concrete has been poured, should we abandon the purchase? Just wondering if we can overcome the problems or if it will be an uphill battle for years on end! We are buying as a long term investment...

The gutters looked to be in good condition and it was raining when we viewed again on Monday and I think the drainage went into the ground...

If the house is unoccupied, a builder can take up the floor.

Think of a man with a pneumatic drill mending a road.

I'd drill it first to see how thick it is. If thin, once a hole has been made, a pickaxe will lift it in convenient pieces. It may even break with a big hammer. The neighbours will be annoyed.

The original stone flags may have been sold for £many.

But see if your council has a Historic Buildings officer. Chances are that the town has hundreds of similar houses with similar problems.

The water pipe is probably leaking. You can listen to it with an engineers stethoscope while someone turns the external stopcock off and on.

The cobbles are probably a modern restoration.

@PigletJohn
Yes it occurred to me that the flags may have been sold as they have been removed from the backyard.
I've been in contact with the conservation team about something else so I'll get back in touch.
We don't own the house yet so not sure the current owners will take kindly to us drilling holes in their floor! In fact, the questionnaire they sent back to our solicitor indicated there had already been some damp proofing which had failed so I'm waiting from further info on that.

Gosh I hope you didn't pay that independent damp specialist much. They probably work for the local damp proofing company and are only 'independent' when someone is specifically looking for that. Find a period house specialist instead.

We had/have damp issues and called on the help of PigletJohn. We had a random screed poured over our floors which had been forcing water up the walls. The screed has now been removed and we have exposed the flagstones. The whole house has been concrete rendered as well. We also had failed guttering so water not draining away, just seeping into the ground, and higher, ground outside than inside. Also covered in concrete. Not surprisingly we were told by "damp specialists" that we needed to plaster on a whole load of concrete to the inside walls up to 1.2m to sort the problem out, but lo and behold we discovered this had also been done in the past so water was making its way up past that. The poor place was so damp. It even had leaky chimney flues as the cherry on top.

We have removed the screed flooring and drilled out all the inside concrete and gypsum and it's amazing that only those two things have been done and already it's so much drier inside. Our Lime plaster is just starting to go on and the Leak in the flues was sorted on Tuesday, just in time for the last few days of constant rain. Hoping neighbours at back will allow us to put french drains in their concrete patio that we back on to, as the hearth did get damp again after the rain. Long term we will probably take the render off. If the floors stay damp long term we may need to have them lifted and put Limecrete down underneath with geocell but we'll give it a try for a while, if we get french drains we may not need to do this. Cupboard under stairs and hearth not got flagstones so may well do this in those two areas as they seem the dampest and use these as test areas. All of these things could be things you could do. None massively expensive although the Limecrete will be a big expense it's still comparable to the recommendations made by your 'expert'!

it may be that the hearthstone is damp due to the rubble it is laid on (which is very absorbent)

you can dig this out but you will need to break (or perhaps lift) the hearthstone. You will probabvly find a chimney--breast shaped chamber of brickwork that the chimney is built on, filled up from the damp ground to hearth level with rubble. If you dig this out and expose the brickwork to the air, the moisture can evaporate out of the bricks, and will not rise up far. Remove any other rubble you find under the floor, especially wood or other organic material.

@Bloomsburyreader was it difficult/expensive to have the screed removed from the flags?

Google ‘rising damp myth’
I found a surveyor who said on his website there was no such thing as rising damp. He identified problems which were easily rectified and make good sense, ie. a patio built above the dpc causing damp on the internal wall. Some jobs involved a lot of noise, as PigletJohn said!
Good luck!

As soon as I saw the pic I knew it was Saltaire! I used to live there. Because they're listed houses in a world heritage area, check with the council - I'm sure there is an officer that can can give advice on these sort of issues. Such a lovely village - I miss it!

This is a good starting point:

www.bradford.gov.uk/environment/listed-buildings/altering-or-repairing-a-listed-building/

I've got a similar woeful story of damp. Bloomsburyreader if you don't mind me asking, you've dug out your cement floor but not poured limecrete, what is the flooring now?

I'd get in touch with a conservation specialist, a surveyor who works primarily in heritage buildings. They will be far more in tune with what a listed building needs and how it should be treated. Damp specialists always peddle injections or tanking and it just doesn't work with these properties. On my MSc we were given an example of 'specialists' who use damp meter readers in lime render! It's never going to give an appropriate reading!
When we bought our C18 stone cottage we used a surveyor who advertised as a heritage specialist and I found his survey incredibly helpful and appropriate (we ended up having a wall lime rendered).

Sorry for slow reply- been busy lime plastering. I'm getting quite proficient- DH started talking about me doing it professionally! erm, no.

We were lucky in that screed was like a resin type thing that clung to itself far better than to the floor underneath so if came up reasonably easily. DH got each room up in a day. Underneath were the flagstones. Here is the thread where Mumsnet saved the day
What is this floor and how do I remove it? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/property/4310560-what-is-this-floor-and-how-do-i-remove-it. There was also a thread about the damp as we learnt that we didn't need cementious tanking that we had been told to have by the "damp specialist". 2 months on and we are still living in a building site but we know we are doing the right thing by the place.

We haven't done the digging ip of the cupboard under the stairs where there are no flagstones yet, we are going to see how we get on with a french drain outside first. I think we need to do it though. That and the hearth. Thanks for the input pigletjohn, now and in the past!!

Heritage House is a good place to start re damp....www.heritage-house.org

Bit of an update.... The Sellers have had damp works done before and they've given us a guarantee certificate. Our solicitors have asked the sellers solicitors for the damp survey to confirm what is covered under the guarantee. They have advised that the sellers don’t hold anything. The company are still in existence so our solicitor has gone back to insist that the sellers make contact with the company firstly to obtain a copy of the survey so that we know what the certificate covers and secondly for them to request that the company re visit the Property to carry out a further inspection to see if the damp works that are required are covered under the existing guarantee.

I also had a discussion with our surveyor who is still advising that we damp proof using a membrane and plaster. I asked about pulling up the floor, but she advised that it would be very costly and we'd likely have to dig down, insulate and put back to today's building regs PLUS wed still need to do the walls....

I'm thinking maybe I need to get a second opinion, but not sure how to even find a surveyor who specialises in conservation/hertiage houses...

Also, if damp works have been done previously (certificate says silicone injection 2013) and we want to undo them... I'm wondering if this will be more costly than having them done in the first place or if you can even undo it? @PigletJohn??

they've had silicone injections before

and it didn't work

that's not unusual.

I am greatly unimpressed that the surveyor salesperson diagnosed rising damp and recommended silicone injections.

I'd be very keen on finding the source of water and repairing it.

For example it might be a leaking pipe or drain, or both; or it might be water puddling outside and/or bridged damp course.

If the floor and wall are both wet I would have thought there was a source of water underneath.

It might be that the specialist you have spoken to specialises in "covering-up" methods rather than "repairing" methods.

Digging up floors and drains is more a builders job.

now I've had a look at the agent pics and refreshed my memory, I think you'd do well to start with the drains and the gutter downpipe. I think perhaps the wall is or has been damp from the gutters and downpipe, and I think probably water from the pavement is soaking into the wall. As the pavement is against the wall you would presumably need council permission to trench it and lay a French Drain or a grille system. The historic buildings officer at the council, and the local preservation society, should know all about these problems, and seen hundreds of attempts to deal with them in houses like yours. They will also know if there is a DPC. In London they were compulsory from 1875 and some of the major Northern towns and cities had a municipal pride in technology and modern standards.

I'd also take off the plaster at the foot of the inside walls and let water evaporate off the surface. I don't know your local materials, but it might dry within a foot of the ground. In my house damp only rises one brick above the paving, it doesn't even reach the DPC. It might help to trench the indoor floor against the wall, but I do not have experience of this. My neighbour has a flint house from late C19th and had a french drain laid against his house walls, filled with loose cobbles.

@PigletJohn, was the french drain successful on your neighbour's property? We are keen to follow this route if it is seen to be successful

yes