Tenancy Confusion.

[ListenLinda]

Hi all, just wondering if someone knowledgeable can help.
Me & DH rented a house off an acquaintance 5 years ago, on an AST tenancy. We have paid the same every month on the same day of every month, until April 2021. We received a tenancy agreement to sign, a Fixed Term of 12 months with a rent increase too. We did not recieve a letter informing us of why the rent was increased. We signed on good faith as we hadn’t had a rent increase in the previous 4 years and it was still below market rent.
Anyway, since then, repairs stopped being timely, an electric safety test determined the electrics in the house are unsafe (not good with two small children), various other things havent been actioned, including a request to deal with the rats nest in the garden, made from junk they promised us they would remove when we moved in in April 2017. We became fed up and invoked the break clause. We have found another property, we gave 2 months notice and requested the deposit back, and we are due to leave at the end of November.
We have recieved a response saying that we owe another full months rent as our rent payments have always been paid in arrears.
I have no written confirmation of that, I have checked our bank statements at the time we moved in and cannot see a payment that states rent just a large cash withdrawal.
The tenancy agreement we signed that became binding in April 2021 states that the rent is payable in advance, so can anyone advise which it is?
Fully prepared to pay something if necessary but I can’t find any signed document or communication in regards to this and I’m not sure whether to query it or just leave it and hope we get the deposit back. Which is also risky as they never placed it in a deposit scheme.
Does anyone have any advice?

Also, we didnt have a tenancy agreement at all until I requested it 2 years after we moved in, at my request as I was due to go on maternity leave with DS and needed one for Universal Credit. The only details on that were our address names and the amount we pay and the date it was due.

Anyone?

It would be a very odd tenancy agreement that didn’t stay whether you were paying in arrears or advance. Have you checked it?

Stay=state. Sorry!

OP you really need to go to Citizens Advice or somewhere local to you where you can receive professional advice.
How well do you know this "acquaintance" that you are renting from?
You won't receive any deposit back until after you have moved out whatever happens, but assuming you are in England or Wales the deposit protection scheme has been in place since 2007.
My suspicion is that the landlord is in financial difficulties hence the demands for extra rent payments and increase in monthly rent.

It's a bit of a mess. Do you want to remain on good terms and can you afford an extra month's rent? Then pay them.

Otherwise write back and say you disagree, that you've paid in advance, and let them try to pursue you for the money.

The deposit is a separate matter. If they don't give it back then you can pursue them and you're likely to be entitled to three times what you paid them because they have failed to protect it. However whether you can prove you ever paid a deposit, and whether they have cash to pay you anyway are different questions.

If it says in the agreement that rent is paid in advance, then you started paying in advance and you don't owe them anything.
You can apply to court for the full deposit to be returned as they have mot properly protected it.

If they didn't protect your deposit, you're entitled to a penalty of up to 3 times the deposit amount.

With the rent payments, surely your bank statements show if you are up to date on rent? Say the contract started on 1 April 2017, you pay one month's rent for April, then May, June, and so on. You'll be liable up until end of November (when your contract ends) whether payable in advance or arrears.

The electrical safety failure is a serious issue too.

Speak to Shelter. I'm not sure if they're open today (call on Monday) but their website is useful too.

We can’t really afford it, as we timed our to notice to end the tenancy with the signing of the new one so there would be no crossover.

I don’t care much for the terms we end on, due to various failure to make their property safe and requests to do so i.e the rats nest, dodgy electrics and asbestos in a garage roof that i’m not sure how it is still standing.

The tenancy agreement we have states the rent is payable in advance, but if what they are saying is true, then we in rent arrears from the point we signed, but have never been informed of this or had any requests to clear these supposed arrears.

I guess I don’t really believe we have a leg to stand on and I am furious they have only told me now and I have to find the months rent we didn’t budget for, as due to the tenancy agreement we signed this year, the rent is payable in advance.

@Tealightsandd i have checked the bank statements. There is a large cash withdrawal (larger than the rent payment) at the beginning of the month, the first transaction that states rent is at the end of April 2017.

The rent became payable in advance in April this year, but they have never contacted us about the 3(ish) weeks of rent arrears we supposedly now owe and have never requested it.

Definitely speak to Shelter

Either that large first payment will be considered rent in advance, or a deposit. Which they didn't protect (and therefore are liable to paying you a penalty of up to 3 times the amount).

I just want to leave now. This whole situation is stressing me out. I dont believe it is owed but dont know what to say. Give us the deposit back and call it a day or lets persue it and you’ll have to pay double what we supposedly owe you in rent.

How much did you pay them the day you moved in?
Surely you remember whether you paid them the day you moved in or a month later?

@CloseYourEyesAndSee what I remember from that time is travelling back and forth to the hospital every day for blood pressure monitoring due to suspected pre eclampsia, it was so stressful I think I have blocked everything out.

My concern now is that it legally changed to payment in advance in april 2021 but I was never told of the supposed rent arrears or given the opportunity to clear them.

Have you been informed where your deposit is being held though?

Ok
So the date you signed your tenancy it changed to payment in advance (if it was in arrears in the first place)
But they did not ask you for an additional rent payment? So they were working on the basis that you were already paying in advance?
So you don't owe them anything, assuming you've paid up to the beginning of your final month.

@CloseYourEyesAndSee no they did not ask for a further rent payment or additional payments at all.

@SeasonFinale nope, they said they will meet me at the property to do a check and they will bank transfer me the deposit back. So it hasn’t been placed in one.

Isn't there some legal process whereby if the LL hasn't protected the deposit with all the correct paperwork you can claim back 3 x the amount. Offer a deal, you get your deposit back in full, go to your new home and don't sue them. They are effectively 2 months in credit without any court issues

It is possible to keep the deposit in the LLs control but it still has to be registered with one of the deposit schemes who can arbitrate deductions. But you should have had paperwork with all the details on.

I'd be inclined to walk away, draw a line under the whole thing, and call it quits. If you're stressed now then battling to get your deposit back will be considerably more stressful, especially with no paperwork or proper evidence against someone with no money. If they want any more rent out of you let them try - they will have the same problem with paperwork and proving which payments are attributable to which month. It sounds like you're the ones who will be out of pocket by it all.

And learn the lesson of getting complicated and important legal relationships (in fact any legal relationships) and the payments that go with them recorded in writing!

@MurielSpriggs thank you, I would be inclinded to agree but it’s not really about the deposit. It’s about them stating a further rent payment is due, as the rent has always been paid in arrears, despite the current tenancy agreement saying otherwise.

I think it very unlikely you were allowed to rent in arrears,I've private rented all my adult life and it's always always been deposit and first months rent up front.

@YodaiamsaidI it does happen, apparently. Our rental before this was in advance and where we are moving to is in advance too, which is why we didnt budget for the months rent as according to the tenancy we signed in april 21, we pay in advance.

Shelter should be your first port of call for sorting this out. They will help you gather the information you need in line with the law, it certainly doesn't sound like the land lord has met their legal requirements.

The deposit matter will help you though. If they are trying to claim you owe 3 weeks or a months rent and they have not protected the deposit or if they have not notified you how/where it is being held you have a claim against them for not only the return of the deposit but also the court can award up to 3 times the deposit.

Therefore you can use this as a bargaining tool. If you leave and they try to sue for arrears you counterclaim for the deposit and an award in respect of an unprotected deposit.