Have you A) sold a property with a loft conversion that has no building regs sign off or B) bought one?

[WorriedMutha]

We are potentially in position B and are trying to weigh up the pitfalls of proceeding. This has emerged very late in the day and it should have been disclosed much earlier. Essentially our proposed 4 b/r house should be a 3 b/r with a loft space. I know there are other threads on this issue. I've read them all and Googled the life out of the problem. It divides into 'it'll be fiiiiiiinnnnee' (as per our estate agent) or 'run a mile'.
I've just disclosed it to an insurer that had quoted for our proposed purchase and the customer service agent sought advice from the underwriter. His reply was 'decline quote'.
If you are in A) and have sold a house in similar circumstances (which happens every day and nobody's bovvered according to the agent), how did the agent market the property. Was the irregular loft included in the b/r count? Or did they err on the side of caution and keep it as a useful space, games room, casual living facility. Basically can the estate agent be found wanting here or is this par for the course.
We will have lost a couple of thousand in survey and solicitor fees so I will be complaining bitterly if they have misrepresented this property. I would follow up with the property ombudsman if I was sure of my ground. It helps therefore if you have experience of the approach of your agents.
It does look as if there was a certificate of lawful development in 2012 so this loft has been around a while without the house falling down. So far as I can see this doesn't get round the building regs issue. The vendors already have indemnity insurance that predates their purchase which is why I am certain this was a known issue. I can see that the insurance was issued to their solicitor so they must have known of the defect from the outset.
Over to you Mumsnet. I appreciate the help.

I wouldn’t buy it, or at least not without a discount versus the price of a 4 bed. Past experience of less than honest estate agents means BR sign off for a loft conversion would be the first thing I would ask for, before even instructing a solicitor.

It is probably safe, in that it has been standing a while, but you will potentially have the same issue when you come to sell. It may be badly insulated so will be boiling in winter and like an oven in summer, it may not meet fire safety requirements - you cannot know which bit they skimped on, only that they did.

I will never understand why people spend time and money doing a bodge job, when getting BR sign off (we have a loft conversion we did) is not very difficult.

I expect the agent will say they relied on the vendor, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t make their life difficult/seek compensation from them - they are the “experts” and should know by now to make the position clear. If people don’t complain they’ll never change their ways.

The vendor can buy an indemnity insurance policy which covers you in the event of a problem getting approval.

We did but it was sold as a loft room. Ours was safe to use as a bedroom but did not have a fire door so couldn't be called one. No issues with mortgage or survey. We did have a teenager using that bedroom, though. Due to the layout of the stairs k wouldn't have put a younger child up gher but you have to weigh it up on the actual conversion and what you need it for.

I do think you are panicking about nothing much really.

We have been in both situations. Our last house before this one: we bought it as a 4 bedroomed house. The loft conversion was done in the 1970s (Victorian terrace). We sold it as a 3 bed with loft room. We bought indemnity for our purchasers (cost about £100).

The house had no problems. There was no structural movement. It had been like this for 40+ years. If we had stayed we would have done a proper conversion and made it bigger, which is what the new family did some years after moving in.

It really is not an issue. That is why the estate agent is saying you shouldn't worry. Although they shouldn't have marketed it as a 4 bed.

If you like the house, you are a part way down the process, and you could change it yourself at a later date, the survey says its structurally sound, then honestly you are making a fuss over nothing. Not sure why you told your insurers either.

It is not correct to market the property as a 4 bed, if the 4th bedroom did not conform to building regulations at the time that it was converted.

'A Certificate of Lawful Existing Use or Development (CLEUD) is a certificate that is legally granted by a Local Planning Authority to retrospectively legalise a previously unauthorised development. Or to confirm development was carried out inline with an approved permission.'

This means that the planning authorities cannot required the building to be returned to it's previous state. What I do not know is what impact this has on the buildings insurance for the house.

What you need to ascertain is whether the construction was done in line with the regulations and approval was simply not sought at the time or whether the construction was not done correctly, and then.. how you feel about this.

from www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/36/loft_conversion/3.
The regulations will be applied to ensure, for example:

• the structural strength of the new floor is sufficient
• the stability of the structure (including the existing roof) is not endangered
• safe escape from fire
• safely designed stairs to the new floor
• reasonable sound insulation between the conversion and the rooms below.

If the floor, roof stability, stairs and fire safety aspects are not sufficient, what is your attitude to the risk that in inherent in that. What are the potential costs associated with rectifying the work (usually similar to the costs of redoing the work from scratch if none of the usual remediation works were carried out.. could be significant if the roof space is not of adequate height). It may be that the existing structure is adequate, what I don't know is whether it is possible to determine that without significant work and damage.

Is the house priced as a 4 bed? Is there room to negotiate? When was the work done? Are there any records regarding the alterations?

Remember: There are plenty of old properties with bedrooms in the loft, steep stair cases and roofs that are supported by thin beams. What you need to consider is if you are prepared to pay the price you have agreed for a property that is not as described.

It is a really tough decision and the 'worst case scenario' (off the house collapsing and the repair costs not being covered by insurance) is very very remote. What is much more likely is that you will be faced with a similar problem when you come to sell, unless you choose to have the conversion redone or you market it as a 3 bed with extra space.

We're waiting to exchange on a three bed with an attic room. It's well done; but doesn't have building control sign off. Our lender had to approve that they were happy to go ahead, but they did with no problem.

The difference in our case is that it was marketed as a three-bed with a loft room; and the TR forms contained the information too. We also know roughly what we'd need to do to get it signed off as another bedroom.

We did but it was sold as a loft room. Ours was safe to use as a bedroom but did not have a fire door so couldn't be called one.

That's basically the case for us, too. We'd need to change the door, but the rest seems fine; and the stairs are good. We don't need the fourth bedroom imminently, so we'll aim to finish it with a fire door closer to the time.

I've bought one but the house was marketed (and priced) as three bedroom with loft space not four bed. I don't use it as a bedroom but I previous owners had it as room for a child from a previous relationship who wasn't there much.

No issues with insurance because it isn't listed as a bedroom, I've got all the assorted documents and insurance from the work and I'm confident it was done properly, I also know what the Building Reg issue is (fire door as above) and how it could be resolved if I wanted to.

As a child and an adult I've only ever lived in houses built pre WW2 and none of them would meet current Building Regs due to fire doors, it only becomes an issue when work is done.

I'd be fuming at having got so far along in the process only for this to be disclosed now. The room may well be safe and usable but if it's not signed off it can't be counted as a bedroom. To get it signed off now I presume that you'd need it to conform to today's standards and requirements and not those when it was converted.

As you well know it should've been marketed and priced according to what complies. Proving beyond doubt that the agent was fully informed could be tricky though.

I did walk away from a house in the same situation, especially after the agent told me, the viewer 'it's only a problem if you come to sell'

How does the purchase price compare with 3 beds in the same area with an allowance for some of the loft work having been done?

We did , but use it as storage/playroom. The stairs do have br sign off though.

Depends what your concern is. If structural a surveyor can assess it , if legally it cannot be retrospectively enforced by council especially if there is a certificate of lawfulness and it was converted ten + years ago. It may have met br at the time but may not now.

Is it included in the valuation as a habitable room?

@SlipperyLizard Just because it doesn't have BR sign off doesn't mean it's a bodge job, it's often solely about fire doors as many have said here. Mine could be sorted by fitting a door at the bottom of the stairs but it would ruin some original Victorian moulding round the picture rail and the original Victorian bannister rail which the previous owners didn't want to do, and neither do I.

We bought a house with attic conversion without building regs in the early '80s and sold it again a few years later.

The space suited us (though would not have passed current building regs) and we understood that after seven years the building regs were unenforceable so we wouldn't need to do anything about it.

Simples.

We have a 'loft roon' that doesn't meet fire regs as we wanted open stair case not a fully boxed in nd no door on bottom... It's just classed as another room rather than a bedroom.

Yes, we bought one, but it was priced accordingly (2 bed plus loft room rather than 3 bed). I use it as an office plus extra spare bedroom and it's fine, but as a PP indicated the insulation isn't brilliant so it can be warmer in the summer/colder in the winter than the rooms downstairs. However my parents fully BRd loft conversion has the same issue with hot/cold so...!

We had to prove that our loft conversion was a proper job at every stage of selling. The estate agent needed to know we had the paperwork before they would advertise it as a 4 bed and not a 3 bed with "useful loft room". The buyers were very careful to ask the right questions. Their surveyor came round and wanted to see all the details too. People are very wary (and rightly so) of paying good money for something that has been done in a substandard DIY kind of way.

Well in simple terms it's no longer a four bedroom house is it? So is the price you're paying that of a three bed or four bed house? If you're paying for a four bedroom then you're overpaying and will lose out if you ever come to sell

We bought our house with a converted loft with no BR, it was however marketed as a 2 bed with loft storage. We took out an indemnity policy to cover us as well. We sold the property 5 years later with no trouble whatsoever. As a PP has said, just because there are no BR it doesn’t mean it’s a bodge job, if you do buy it just be prepared that it might come up if/when you sell, and ensure you are not paying for 4 bedrooms.

No and no.

I wouldn't touch with a barge pole.

It is not part of the bedroom count and affects the value of the property. BR is there to ensure it's done safely and complies with a host of stuff that is important. Fire safety. Access. Insulation so you don't cook in the summer, freeze in the winter. That the structure of the house is sound. Etc.

Building control are really helpful. They have always helped with paperwork advice, come on site when needed, ensured the job is done properly.

I don't understand why somebody wouldn't get building regs. Unless they don't know or its not up to scratch.

When was it built? We bought a house with a loft conversion that was built pre-reg (1980s). We received an indemnity when we purchased it. We wanted to modify it but because of the building reg issue we'll need to knock it down and start again, but I'm not sure it would have been a problem if not for this reason.

Oh and to answer your question directly it was marketed as a 4-bed (which it is with the loft).

We have a properly converted loft. In my direct experience having gone through the work, the three things which building control are most interested in are:

• insulation thickness in the loft
• fire doors, especially if you are going from a 2 story house to a 3 storey house
• staircase, both the pitch (steepness) and head height on the way up.

If a house doesn't conform with building regs then that doesn't mean you can't buy it, and if you're planning on living in it for decades it potentially doesn't matter. But it will cause an issue when you come to sell. Some of the issues which building control will flag up can be fixed without huge disruption - such as fitting fire doors on habitable rooms on your escape route to the front door. But if the whole staircase is "wrong" or there's not enough insulation, then putting it right could be so expensive and so disruptive.

Estate agents shouldn't be marketing the loft room as a bedroom without building regs. It might be possible to get it signed off to use as a bedroom, it might not. And the estate agent doesn't know.

I would personally avoid, as many of the issues which could cause a building control fail are impossible to judge. How do you know what insulation they've used and what thickness?

We were in this situation and pulled out.
In fact I'm sat looking at the house now as we bought the one opposite.
It was marketed as a 4 bed.
No building regs and would never conform in hindsight as the ceiling height probably wasn't adequate and the en-suite was pokey, hardly stand up in it.
They also hid the fact that the house next door were building a two storey extension 20cm from the external wall of the (detached) house.
So 4 bed was actually 3
Detached was becoming a semi by the time the extension was built.

My last house had a loft conversion which was not official. It was sold as extra space rather than another room, I then sold on the same, no issues.

My current house has an official conversion which has taken it from a 3 bed to a 4 bed.

As long as everyone is aware from the outset it’s fine.

We sold one. It conformed to building regs but due to Covid we had been unable to get the final sign off though building control had visited a couple of times during the build. We bought an indemnity policy for the purchasers because the building control people weren't going to be able to come out in time to keep the chain in tact.

Like PP said I think there's quite a difference between something that didn't have any building regs/ doesn't conform to them or something that just hasn't had full sign off. Whether I'd buy it or not I think would depend on that.

We bought a cottage in Scotland, with a floored loft, with great insulation and velux windows, so that it could be used as 2 bedrooms, but it had no staircase, just a substantial fixed wooden ladder, which I thought looked really rustic and good.
Buying that extra space in that way was a bargain.
But I wouldn't pay a 4 bedroom house price for a 3 bedroom house with floored loft.