Do we need a party wall agreement to knock down wall between kitchen and living room?

[Sandrine1982]

Hi,

We plan to make an offer on this house and knock down the wall between the living room and the kitchen.

Do we need a party wall agreement? Of course we would notify the neigbours of the work, but I'm wary of anything that actually requires their permission as I've read horros stories about neighbours not agreeing and so on.

We would of course do everything properly and according to the regulations.

Please tell me about your experience.

Thanks so much x

PS: there is something that looks like a filled chimney breast in the corner of the living room. I wonder if we can remove that and sound proof properly?

If the wall is structural you'll need to replace it with a steel beam. That will be set into the wall, so yes you need a party wall agreement.

Recommend you get a structural engineer to advise and draw up plans for the steel, they should be able to advise on the PWA.

We did similar and got an agreement. It's easy, I just did it myself. Wrote up something and asked the neighbour to sign it. That's all you need if your neighbour has no objections.

@jwilf

If the wall is structural you'll need to replace it with a steel beam. That will be set into the wall, so yes you need a party wall agreement.

Recommend you get a structural engineer to advise and draw up plans for the steel, they should be able to advise on the PWA.

We did similar and got an agreement. It's easy, I just did it myself. Wrote up something and asked the neighbour to sign it. That's all you need if your neighbour has no objections.

On the other hand, the neighbours are entitled to have their own party wall surveyor, paid for by you.

I wouldn't sign a home-made agreement without being advised on the structural / insurance / legal implications!

I don't think you need their permission, you just have to follow proper process and pay for them to have their own party wall surveyor if they want one.

Thanks that's useful. Has anyone had neighbours opposing this or being mad because of such work?

if you don't remove all the chimney and keep a buttress at the end to support your RSJ, you might not need the party wall agreement. but if you want the walls to be completely flat with no visible features between the rooms, then you probably will.

Oh actually that's an interesting point. Presumably i need the agreement only if it really touches the party wall? We don't mind leaving a 30-50cm buttress. Who would decide if we need a PWA? A structural engineer? And is that our first step?

You can find the Party Wall legislation online. It is easy to understand.

I had a very awkward neighbour bu keep in mind that they can't stop the works because they don't like it. But they can make it more expensive by demanding their own surveyor and separate from your own. My neighbour did all of this and more but the work still got done.

@parietal

if you don't remove all the chimney and keep a buttress at the end to support your RSJ, you might not need the party wall agreement. but if you want the walls to be completely flat with no visible features between the rooms, then you probably will.

Yep this. You don’t need a structural engineer or party wall surveyor. Any architect, or indeed any decent builder who does structural work will able to confirm you can do this without affecting the party wall, IF you’re happy to have a large opening with stubs of wall left each side, rather than 100% removing the wall.

Personally I’d make a large opening and then put folding or pocket doors across the opening - very useful being able to close one room off sometimes.

also, before you consider removing the chimney, have a look in the rooms upstairs to see if there is a chimney there & on the roof. you can't remove the fireplace / chimney on the ground floor and leave an unsupported chimney on the first floor and/or roof without doing extra work to support the weight.

Thank you all.

@minipie so if we leave stubs of wall on each side without touching the party wall, does it mean the neighbour won't have any say in this? And they won't be able to ask to appoint a separate surveyor and all that?

@parietal good point, there is a triangle in the bedroom upstairs but not on the roof. It looks like they've closed off the chimney by a stud wall? Do you think it would be expensive to remove that corner both downstairs and upstairs, and straigten it out?

Photos attached :)

Do you mean no chimney at all visible from the outside? You'd need it thoroughly checking as pp said to understand what weight may need supporting or removing.

Yes that’s right because the steel will rest on those stubs.

However knocking out the chimneybreast may be a different story- as pp said you will need to support any chimney or first floor chimneybreast that remains- that support might have to go into the party wall. Would need to ask builders

Not sure why you would want to leave a stub of wall just to avoid doing a PWA, it's not exactly difficult to serve a notice on your neighbour if they don't object.

You absolutely can just write your own party wall notice using a standard template, have a read of hoa.org.uk/advice/guides-for-homeowners/i-am-improving/party-wall-agreement/

I speak from direct experience

That makes sense, thanks :)

jwilf because if the PW Act applies then you may end up paying for one or potentially two party wall surveyors and their fees can hugely increase the overall cost. I also speak from experience!!