Neighbour's "party wall notice" when selling our house

[Shattered04]

We've been planning on moving for a while, and were about to put our place on the market, when the neighbours came round announcing they were planning on building a single storey extension. They then handed over a "pack" with a party wall notice and asked us to sign.

Having never been involved with party wall stuff on either side before, we said we'd look into it and get back to them within the required 14 days. We told them we were planning on moving.

We soon reached the conclusion following research that agreeing to it would lose us all rights over any damage etc. We also discovered that this DIY party wall notice they had put together themselves was most likely invalid; it was missing our names and address, and was almost certainly filing under the wrong section for what they wanted doing among other things. There was also a reasonable chance the notice wasn't even needed anyway, but the plans were too vague! None of this filled us with any confidence, meaning not signing and therefore getting a surveyor, as is our right, felt even more important.

We went back to them explaining our concerns over the validity of the notice, said we wouldn't sign and would be arranging a surveyor (who they were welcome to use too) to be met with "oh, I didn't realise it was going to cost this much" End result is that they are apparently now going to wait until we've sold (we're on the market now) and get the new owners to sign instead, as they seem to believe that we're unusual by not immediately signing and that most people would without question. Maybe they do, who knows, but anyway, that's their problem, assuming they do stick with that plan.

My question is - do we need to reveal any of this on the property information form or to solicitors, or to buyers in any way? Our house isn't selling as fast as we had hoped in the current market (long story), and the last thing we want to do is to make it even harder. While we are pretty sure the notice was invalid, it was never proven so by anyone official, so does it still count for anything official/legal? For all we know, given they seem so disorganised and confused, they might never get around to building an extension and could quite possibly just sell up and get somewhere bigger anyway!

FWIW we first received it well over a month ago now, so all deadlines would have expired and we've heard nothing more from them since we told them we wouldn't be immediately agreeing to it on day 12, and that's when they told us they were going to wait until we'd sold. By them not doing anything more by this point, regardless of whether it actually was valid or not, does it automatically cancel/withdraw?

Thanks!

I would be in a total conundrum too OP. If you ask your solicitor they would probably say you need to declare it on the property information form....though a lot of people I suspect wouldn't. When we moved into our first property it transpires the adjoined neighbour had applied for planning permission in between offer and completion....our sellers failed to declare this and solicitors don't check planning on neighbouring houses. Do you think the neighbour is the sort to say "glad you've moved in! Previous owners refused to sign this!"...or would they be more tactful?

you need to declare it in the property pack.

it's quite common an might not affect the sale.

Yes you need to declare this.

But it is very common when extending. OK your neighbour hasn't gone about it in the best way and actually they have to offer you a solicitor of your choice as you do not have to use theirs. Best to do this anyway.

It would not put me off buying your property knowing that NDN wishes to do an extension. Also it's visually better that they are holding off so that your own viewings aren't affected visually by their buildings work (and noise.)

Thanks all! One of the first things we asked our estate agent was whether knowledge of a pending extension would put people off (this was before they had decided to postpone) and he said he didn't think so, which is reassuring. But estate agents will say anything

That's an excellent point about whether they'd tell new neighbours we'd "refused" to sign. We barely know them other to say hello to - they're relatively new - but I would fully expect it to come up in conversation. After all, they owe us nothing, plus it would never occur to them we could be sued!

My main reluctance over whether to mention it is because I'm sceptical whether it'll go ahead at all given they seem really confused about all of it, and seemed very quick to offer to hold off. They don't sound super committed! And with the current builder shortage, I don't fancy their chances of any party wall agreement lasting long enough for building to even start.

I just wish they'd approached us informally months ago when they were getting architects etc round to make the plans, as we would have told them our moving plans, and we could then have gone on the market sooner and be moved out before anything became official.

That's actually really interesting that solicitors don't check adjoining properties for planning permission with searches! I'd assumed that was the first thing they'd check for. Learn something new every day :-)

I think in your position I would read the property information form very carefully and see if any questions are even actually relevant, if so then answer truthfully, but without extended detail. You can say party wall notice received in relation to xyz, but time limit subsequently expired. If pressed for further information I would ask solicitor for advice.

If the neighbour had done the sensible thing and come and casually spoken to you about their plans and the impending party wall agreement....rather than marching round legal pack in hand, it would have given you the opportunity to mention the move. In all likelihood they probably would have said "oh ok, we might hold off for a bit then". Much more casual and indefinite. However, them giving you legal packs and agreements is much more formalised.

100% check the planning portal yourself when you offer on a house (and keep checking until exchange). I am sure most councils have some facility to do this. Just helps you cover all bases when moving so you don't get any nasty surprises (learnt from experience ).

They can’t just serve this themselves. It has to be overseen by an independent third party, a chartered surveyor usually (if the law hasn’t changed in the past couple of years)

We are buying and all the local planning permissions come back in the local authority search.

Annoyingly our neighbour put in a three storey (2 on top of their existing building) once we were under offer. We've declared it, although it's been refused anyway.

Thanks! I'm tempted to just ask our solicitor anyway before filling it in. It's such a hard call to make, because so many people just wouldn't be bothered at all. But I would be as we both work from home and I'm very noise sensitive; it has actually hastened our move as we'd have taken our time otherwise. We'll definitely be taking a very close look at the planning portal for wherever we intend to move to!

Sidenote: A few weeks ago, I did see a perfect place, spent a good hour or so working out what rooms would be what, Streetview, Google Maps etc. Then I just happened to come across a proposal for (no exaggeration) nearly 500 homes to be built literally the other side of the hedge. That's not frying pan and fire, that's frying pan and volcano!

If the neighbour had spent even five minutes on the Internet reading about party walls, they'd have seen the first thing it says is to talk informally to the neighbour first, as it makes things far smoother all round. Putting people you need to be agreeable on a 14 day deadline, when they may well have other life stuff going on at that time, is not exactly a smart move . Everything between us remains friendly btw; we didn't ask them to withdraw it, they offered, to our surprise. Probably as they think they will be saving money on a surveyor. They might get lucky I guess. Not everyone looks into stuff in detail like we did, as evidenced by our neighbours themselves!

I think they can serve it themselves, assuming it's valid, but if we don't sign, that's when the independent surveyor comes in. There can be one for both (at their expense), or we can request our own (at their expense), and a third one (also at their expense) can sometimes used as a tiebreaker or something I think! We found a pretty decent one during our research, but I think they hoped to get away without using one at all, which I think would have been the case if we'd signed without question.

@MrsSkylerWhite

They can’t just serve this themselves. It has to be overseen by an independent third party, a chartered surveyor usually (if the law hasn’t changed in the past couple of years)

I don't think that's true. In principle, there's no reason a third party needs to be involved in just serving a party wall notice (though in practice getting a professional involved would help people like the OP's neighbours to prepare a valid document).

The need for an independent third party - a party wall surveyor who effectively acts on behalf of the structure rather than for either of the two parties with an interest in it - only comes in to play in preparing a party wall award in the event that the neighbours want to go ahead without the OP's agreement.

I’d say nothing.
You haven’t refused to sign it, just asked to get a surveyor involved and they’ve stopped the process.

“CasperGutman”

The need for an independent third party - a party wall surveyor who effectively acts on behalf of the structure rather than for either of the two parties with an interest in it - only comes in to play in preparing a party wall award in the event that the neighbours want to go ahead without the OP's agreement.“

Yes, you’re absolutely right, I was getting notice mixed up with award. Though in reality, we found it’s almost impossible to object to a party wall notice so an award will almost always come into play.