Just been given Party Wall notice

[palacegirl77]

Neighbours are doing the standard knock through kitchen and dining room, sliding doors, autopsy table extension. Just been given party wall notice. No idea what to do - do we just say yes do it to keep the peace or do we contest it to protect our property? Bit fed up. Theyre going to move in with her parents and we are going to have to endure the building work for 3-4 months (at least). Any advice on how to respond would be much appreciated.

We just signed ours to keep the peace. Came in handy a few years later when we did our own extension and neighbours agreed straight away. I think there's a short time limit and it automatically goes into dispute. Costs the neighbours money but I've not heard of anyone successfully stopping an extension. You can try to stipulate conditions on the works instead. Perhaps advance notice of noisier parts of the work though my own extension ended up a few weeks behind schedule.

Love the description of autopsy table.

You are entitled to have a surveyor of your choice inspect the plans and the property at your neighbours' expense.
Look up local party wall surveyors and get recommendations.
You must do this to protect your most expensive asset.

A party wall surveyor doesn't get involved to stop works, more to monitor damage to your property whilst works are being done.

Have the neighbours got planning permission or is it permitted development?

You can share a party wall surveyor or appoint your own and the neighbours are obliged to pay. I know a good one in NW England.

Oh god, that sounds a nightmare.

I'd agree to keep things friendly but insist on contact numbers for noise issues.

Have a good read just to be sure things are correct and you’re happy with it. Small things such as ensuring frosted windows, location of waste pipe or similar are easy tings to address before works start. Ensuring the hours of work and notification prior to particularly noisy or dusty works, road blocking deliveries, access to your land etc especially as your neighbours won’t be living there to ensure the builders are being neighbour friendly.

I did google “autopsy table extension” and could not find. What does this mean?

You need to think about what the purpose of contesting it would be and what you’d be aiming to achieve and if this could be achieved by speaking to your neighbours and coming to an agreement. Of course it’s ok to contest it if necessary but it’ll add to your neighbour’s costs so I wouldn’t contest it just because you’re frustrated about the disruption the build will cause you. When we did similar building work we ensured both neighbours took photos of the adjoining party walls from their side as evidence of their current condition and these were signed and dated by us and our neighbours too for peace of mind. Our builders caused a small crack on their side of the wall when placing a new beam into the wall and sorted the repair work out very promptly for them and our neighbours were brilliant about it. Good neighbourly relationships are so important and we were extremely grateful that our neighbours were helpful and accommodating when we had our work done, we also felt really bad about the disruption we were aware the noise etc caused them. They’ve since undertaken fairly significant work. I’d be aiming to address any concerns you have but to keep things on good terms, it’s possible to do both.

On what basis would you be contesting it? Assuming it gets through planning permission, and you’ve described it as “standard” so no reason to think it wouldn’t, then I don’t think you can actually prevent the works from going ahead.

The party wall notice isn’t to do with permission to do the works themselves but is concerned with hours of work, access, preparing a schedule of condition, etc.

We got our own surveyor (paid for by neighbour) when they did their work. They were happy to use ours when we did similar work, although our other neighbour opted for their own. You have a choice.

It’s actually much better for you that they are moving out as it means the work can be completed more quickly.

The work will go ahead so there’s no point in being difficult about it. One of our neighbours was very reasonable, offered to keep and eye on things once we moved out (we had a new baby so struggled to make it over every day for a while). The other neighbour made life as difficult as possible. It goes without saying that we were very accommodating when the nice neighbours made any specific requests but told the difficult neighbour to take a hike when they made unreasonable demands.

The point of a party wall agreement is that you are protected if any works they do results in damage to your property. Look up party wall surveyors in your area and ask around for a recommendation for one. You and neighbour can agree to appoint a shared one who will act as an independent expert or you can insist on one of your own choosing and they have to pay for it either way. The surveyor inspects your property and theirs and if their works cause any damage to your property then you have evidence that the damage wasn't pre-existing prior to their works.

Agree with Rainbows - think carefully about what you’re trying to achieve here, as you can’t actually stop them from going ahead, but you can insist on your own surveyor (I would recommend this).

You can, as Mildura suggests try to insist on certain conditions, such as hours of work. However, these will/should only pertain to work done on the party wall (and within 3m) - trying to insist on anything more than that (e.g. limitations on hours of work to the entire site) is not neighbourly and will just damage the relationship. As too will any other conditions that you try to shoehorn in there - the party wall agreement is there to protect your asset, not for you to try and control aspects of the build.

A few years back now but we were happy to agree to no works on our party wall in our agreement (we were building) over lunchtime as neighbour had young children. The CFs tried to insist (through ‘their’ surveyor) the agreement stated no works at all on the entire site during these hours, despite us telling them verbally we couldn’t agree to this as it simply wasn't practical for the builder (but would try our best to avoid). Had our surveyor not picked up on this it would have been legally binding. Sadly this didn’t stop them from coming round to harass the builders whenever they did need to work over lunch, despite the work being on the opposite side of the property to them, 3m+ clear of the party wall etc.

As others have said, it's highly unlikely you'll be able to stop the works, so focus on what you would like to happen, and getting processes agreed in writing if anything goes wrong.

• Check the plans carefully. You have a right to have protected privacy, for example, and this includes how far the extension juts out from the original back walls of the houses.
• Are there windows in the new extension that would overlook you?
• Are there trees, fence or plants in your garden that might be damaged? How does your neighbour propose to preserve those items? If they are damaged or die, how does your neighbour propose to replace them? Get this in writing.
• Are there shared things, eg. chimney stack, that could be damaged? Again, how does your neighbour propose to mitigate and then manage any damage?
• Does the extension go over the top of anything important eg. soil pipes, water pipes, electric cables? They're usually but not always at the front of the house but worth checking their location (they will have to do this as part of their planning application and if they haven't you need to make them!).
• Do the plans include a gap between the houses? E.g. their extension wall should step out slightly from the boundary line and not follow the line of the party wall, so as not to cause damp issues later on down the line (if their new wall ran very close to an existing wall of yours, it'd cause problematic damp).
• Are they using fire-appropriate materials? E.g. if the extension is less than a metre from your house it can't use wood. It has to be brick, due to the risk of fire spreading quickly from one property to another.
• Does the extension cause significant shadow in your garden/house? This can cause damp issues.
• Do their plans sufficiently address water run-off from the new extension roof? As in, you don't want it rushing off into your garden or down walls - this is pretty standard but if they have a dodgy builder ... might not be considered.

Finally, both parties should take comprehensive photos of the shared wall from the inside, as well as the boundary outside, e.g. garden, fence etc.. Photos need to be dated. If there is damage, e.g. plaster cracking on your side, it makes it a zillion times easier for you to prove it is as a result of the works and therefore your neighbour is liable to repair or replace.

If you photograph the whole boundary then you're also covered if, for example, the builders drive their truck over your front drive and cause damage, even though the extension is (presumably) at the back.

Hope that helps. I was the person building the extension, and I spent a lot of time with my neighbours working out a way of doing it that was as least disruptive as possible. We put a lot back onto the builder and architect, we had a written and agreed plan if things went wrong, we also changed our plans to suit our neighbours and I'm glad we did, as we have a really good relationship and they were lovely all through the (very stressful) works.

I'd also find out if they need planning permission: the planning office really will have your back if they do. If they don't need planning consent then you need to do your homework as much as possible, as ALL the builders we used always tried to cut corners. Planning made that much harder for them to do so :)

Thank so much for all that info! So glad I asked as you are all very knowledgeable. So to he clear - their original plans got turned down as we are set lower than them and it was quoted as saying it would be overbearing in terms of light etc. So of course now they've scaled it back to 3m so don't need permission so it's going to go ahead. We aren't trying to stop it (and actually we want to maintain a good friendship with the neighbours but obviously protect our house too. I would definitely want advance notice of particularly loud or dusty work as we have garden rabbits I will need to move and a barky dog I will probably have to ask my dad to have. I'd definitely like to know they will respect the fact I have children (in terms of general loud noise, swearing etc!) And yes the wall is going to be stepped in (but I'm assuming as it's brick they'll need to access it from our side. So do we just write down all our concerns, take photos etc and hope the neighbours take these concerns on or do we tell them we would like a surveyor to sort that all out? Is that a sensible option?

If you don't have a brilliant relationship with your neighbour then I'd be inclined to be more proactive. Ask for plans, ask about position of sewage/water/electric, ask for a written plan if damage etc. Get EVERYTHING written down. If they want access from your land, it needs to be in writing, and you can dictate the terms (and I would, tbh, as while your neighbour might be respectful I can guarantee the builders won't be).

Expect damage, even minor. Then, if there is you have a written plan (including a timescale within that for how long they can take to fix things). And if not - brilliant!

Btw, be realistic about the builders. They sub-contracted quite a bit on ours and, e.g., the brickies they used on the extension wall were so rude, disrespectful of neighbours, very loud radio, very loud swearing. I had to go round and tell them off pretty much every day, to the point where I would wait around the corner and then go back and tell them to STOP SWEARING again!! They were like little kids.

And finally: you can insist on a schedule but I've never actually known a builder work to one. This won't be your neighbours' fault, so be prepared to be assertive with the builders (and neighbour), insist on prior notice of any works that effect your house/land, even if their schedules shift, and be prepared to remind them of your terms when they go ahead.

A lot of the time your neighbour won't know what's going on - develop a relationship with the builders and remember that you don't have to be rude, but you don't have to be a pushover, either. The ones we have worked with over the years needed very clear boundaries. I was always polite but I was also very firm and very clear about what I wanted, when I wanted it, and what would happen if I wasn't happy. And if you need to repeat yourself, then do :) GOOD LUCK.

Get a surveyor. It is really important because it is your responsibility to do so in case there are any problems. It won't cost you anything.
Do check about the builder's insurance and whether they use subcontractors.
It is far better to do things correctly now than to try and sort things out later if anything goes wrong.

I’d have my own surveyor if I was you palacegirl (even though we had to pay for our neighbours ifswim).

Much easier to let the two party wall surveyors sort it out between them than accept all the responsibility of the various documents that you’d need to request etc. To be honest, if our neighbours had asked for half of what butterflies suggested I’d have been

Fire appropriate materials? The extension wouldn’t pass basic building regs if they weren’t!

So sorry to be daft - if we want to have a surveyor do we just tell them thats what we would like (so we arent consenting as such) and then let them arrange (and pay) for it? I know we have 14 days to respond (and if we dont respond its assumed we are wanting to pursue a surveyor?

You need to appoint your own surveyor - the neighbours can't appoint one for you, but they need to pay your surveyor's costs.

Appoint your own surveyor. Your neighbours pay his costs.

@LondonNQT sorry if you think I'm being OTT. Having been there, done that, I'm only passing on my experience. Which over the course of various houses and major works hasn't been great!

If the extension isn't going through planning, the OP is wise to be as proactive as possible. The planning office insisted on fire-retardant materials BEFORE works commenced on our house, for example, and rejected our initial design. Had planning consent not been required, then building regs would only have picked this up AFTER our extension had been built (and we were using a 'good' architect, who suggested wood, and who should have known better). So yes, it wouldn't have passed building regs but we'd have gone ahead and built it that way ... and then would have had to rebuild it. Which in turn would have been a nightmare for my neighbours.

So it really depends on whether her neighbours are having to get planning consent or not ... if they're not there's a lot to be said for asking the right questions. If her neighbour / builder struggles to answer those questions, well, that says a lot about them really.

Agree 100% that the OP should get her own surveyor: they'd do a lot of the things I've suggested on her behalf.

I’d definitely let them know if you’re planning to appoint a surveyor rather than just letting the 14 days elapse. Keep those communication channels open. I’m sure they’ll understand that you’re doing so to protect your own interests. Just to be clear, as there seems to be some confusion, the purpose of a party wall agreement is solely related to work on or very close to a jointly owned (party wall). Planning and building regulations are completely separate to this. Whether the extension needs full planning or will be built under permitted development rights any decent builder will be well aware of building regulations and a building inspector will need to come out at specific points during the build to sign things off and ensure that everything meets current building requirements, it’s all very tightly regulated. I’m sure they’d be happy to share their plans with you once they are all drawn up. I’d aim to keep them on side as much as possible. I’ve been on both sides and it’s perfectly possible to work through concerns and maintain positive relationships.

That's really useful - thank you! Yes they've shared plans with us etc, they're certainly keen to keep us happy I think (which is why I was a bit unsure about getting a surveyor and upsetting them!) So the plan would be - go back and say we would like a surveyor involved, we find one and then pass the details to them etc?

That’s great that they’ve shared plans. That’s exactly what we did before discussing the party wall agreement with our plans. We were very conscious of the disruption our work would cause and were very keen to keep them as happy as possible. I’m sure they’ll understand. I was surprised that our neighbours didn’t want to appoint someone, as it provides you with more protection. I’d just explain that you’ve researched it and have been advised that appointing someone to draw up a schedule of condition provides you with protection, if anything goes wrong and makes it far more straightforward if anything does go wrong, as much as you may (or may not) trust them. Remember that although it’s an additional cost for them it’s relatively small in the context of such a big build. I hope it all goes smoothly for you.

@Rainbowsandstorms

That’s great that they’ve shared plans. That’s exactly what we did before discussing the party wall agreement with our plans. We were very conscious of the disruption our work would cause and were very keen to keep them as happy as possible. I’m sure they’ll understand. I was surprised that our neighbours didn’t want to appoint someone, as it provides you with more protection. I’d just explain that you’ve researched it and have been advised that appointing someone to draw up a schedule of condition provides you with protection, if anything goes wrong and makes it far more straightforward if anything does go wrong, as much as you may (or may not) trust them. Remember that although it’s an additional cost for them it’s relatively small in the context of such a big build. I hope it all goes smoothly for you.

Thank you so much! This is absolutely perfect advice (and even tells me what I need to say - exactly what I was looking for!) Your a star,much appreciated!

@palacegirl77 you’re very welcome. Happy to have been able to help. Good luck with it all, it sounds like you have good neighbours who want to keep you happy.

For context, we have just agreed a party wall award with our neighbours who are building a pretty major extension. Our surveyor cost - which they have to pay - were just over £2k. So it’s not a major expense in the scheme of things.

@MrsWobble3

For context, we have just agreed a party wall award with our neighbours who are building a pretty major extension. Our surveyor cost - which they have to pay - were just over £2k. So it’s not a major expense in the scheme of things.

I can see why theyve downplayed it a but then if thats the cost! When they gave us the party wall notice they said it was just a bit of paper we needed to have - not sure they realise we will actually look into it lol.