Can anyone help me regarding cladding? Any recourse?

[TheViewFromTheCheapSeats]

My relative has had a flat purchase moving reaaaalllly slowly.

3 story block. Surveys done, solicitors paid etc- paid out about 2k so far. Building friend drove past and rung him to ask about the cladding as if it’s flammable (it’s about a third covered). It’s taken three months for the solicitor to get back on this. It’s ready to exchange and has been for the entire three months of waiting for an answer to this final question.

He’s now been told that the residents back in October made a plan to test if it’s flammable, which will cost about 1.5k per flat to test alone. This is to get a certificate they need for sale. The vendor put the flat in the market three weeks after this.

Worst case scenario it flammable I guess and it’s then a crazy bill for the leaseholders. The only sensible option seems to be to pull out.

It feels fraudulent that the estate agent and vendor haven’t disclosed this before. He stands to lose 2k he’s spent on surveys and fees, when he’d not have made the offer with the knowledge. Also the solicitors from neither side have picked up in it, he only asked because a friend who is a builder queried it. All the survey does is simply mention there is cladding, without any comment. My relative just had no awareness of the implications of cladding, they are a youngish first time buyer. The vendor though obviously knew as they were involved in the meeting of leaseholds before they put the flat on the market.

Is there a hope of trying to claim back the 2k on the basis of non-disclosure? The vendor has clearly put the flat on the market after the meeting regarding the cladding. It’s too low to access government funding. In the past half a year or so since they accepted the offer the awareness of problems with cladding has certainly made the need. My uneducated guess is it’s flammable as it looks like the cladding in a fire last year in the news.

@MauveMavis

Boris and his mates are busy protecting the developers of residential property and screwing over everyone who bought in a modern block - you have no recourse against the developer if your block is over 15 years old even if EWS1 inspection process turns up that the building was constructed wrongly. You also can't litigate against building control who are meant to check the quality of ongoing construction and compliance with building regs

I’m the last person who wants to defend Boris. But building control can only check standards against current legislation / guidance - that’s what they rely on.

The same as architects rely on manufacturer guidelines when specifying materials. But they don’t check if it’s a design only contract.

And manufacturers depend on the British standards for testing.

@0DETTE the cases I’m referring to are where EWS1 examinations have uncovered that building regs in place at the time of construction were contravened.

Case I’m thinking of involved missing firebreaks.

Building control should have picked this up. Otherwise what is the ducking point of actually having building regulations and building control.

But you can’t sue them.

www.stephens-scown.co.uk/construction/one-snag-building-control-arent-liable-for-spotting-defects/

basically when you buy a property you have to trust that the developer built to the required building standards.

If you identify later that they didn’t you have very limited recourse.

I have friends in new blocks who are trying to leverage against major developers who are still trading after their newish (

There has been a red flag against cladding on flats since Grenfell.
This isn’t a new thing.
I don’t think the EA or vendor were hiding anything as I presume the cladding is visible

I think your relative might do well in taking someone a little more experienced along with him when he sees another place he likes.

Unfortunately you have to write off the money spent. I would think everyone who has ever bought and sold at some point has had the issue of paying out for surveys and solicitors

@MauveMavis - YY compartmentalisation is a major factor in many of these big fires.

I wonder when someone will take legal action against the mortgage lenders. They also had a duty to ensure that properties were fit to lend against.

@0DETTE ‘They were foolish not to read the survey reports and to pay so much to solicitors and a mortgage broker upfront without reading the contracts / paperwork’

Can you explain that? They read everything. The mortgage offer was fine. The survey was pretty good with no advice for further investigation. The survey went to the mortgage company with a valuation, who also didn’t raise concern. In the contracts and paperwork there was nothing to state there was any concern whatsoever. The solicitor had no concerns. I’ve posted above the only mention of cladding, it existed.

Their friend is a builder who advised them before they exchanged to ask about the cladding type. After a 3 month delay they got the response about certificates and the cost etc. I wouldn’t have actually picked up on it either. I knew about cladding for tower blocks and the type at Grenfell, but I wouldn’t have blinked at the fact that a 3 story brick block had some planks of wood on the upper floor. The news was all about the aluminium stuff, and high rise. I wouldn’t have mentally linked the two as a lay person either. Just like the surveyor wasn’t an expect either it appears. It effectively means that every single block in the whole area, however low,!could face this problem. It looks impossible to buy a flat in the area except for the odd 1970s concrete maisonette.

TheViewFromTheCheapSeats

If your relative had been seriously looking at properties for sale then it would have been obvious that there was a problem with certain flats.
They must have seen nicely done flats that had long leases at really low prices that say Cash Buyers Only. Did they not question why they were cash buyers only.
Why were they being sold for half the price they were bought for a couple of years ago.

Flats have things you check out like does it have any cladding, garden or outside space, the length of the lease, what is the service charges or if they need the roof doing or the communal areas and outside spaces need work in the immediate future because that will mean a few years with much bigger bills.
These are things you check out before you view let alone months down the line when you have spent money on mortgage fees etc

Did the pack from the management company not make any mention of this issue or that each resident had recently paid out for the testing? Surely that should have been in the financial breakdown sent to your relatives' solicitor and should have been raised as a potential issue by the solicitor?

This is a bit like Aibu! It’s not that wildly unbelievable that someone new to the game doesn’t know every relevant question and relies on experts. It’s a harsh lesson. Personally I would have told buyers what I was aware of, from a mixture of honesty and being aware that the sale would likely fall through anyway when it was discovered. I sold a flat recently and I was pretty straight up with anyone making offers before surveys picked up what I knew they would (in my case the roof felt needed repair) so they didn’t waste time if it turned out to be an issue.

No, the management company pack has no mention, the survey has the bit I quoted. I’ve since read everything myself to check. That single line about having cladding in the survey is the only mention.

I find it a bit surprising that everyone thinks it’s acceptable that a surveyor/ management company/ solicitor would not be aware of potential cladding issues, but a first time buyer would. Wouldn’t they have more experience? As a solicitor I might say these days- does it have cladding btw? As a mortgage company I’d note it.

As I said it’s not a high rise with aluminium, a little brick low block with wood on the upstairs floor. I honestly wouldn’t have known either that this was linked to the news.

The survey checked the roof, the lease was discussed, service charges. A pretty long list, every crack and damp patch. Even the future costs of doing up the tatty underground car park in the future. It was hardly like they’ve just done nothing. The only single area they weren’t aware of was that timber cladding could be linked to fires in buildings with aluminium cladding and high rise blocks. Even the industry news just seems to be catching up (the offer went in and was accepted in late 2020, he asked about the cladding in March.). I wouldn’t call them negligent in their attempts to check everything.

The other question- no, the market for this flats when the offer went in appeared to be booming. He lost out on 4 other flats before this due to higher bids. Even now looking on Rightmove the only low cash only one is a tall block that looks more like the high rises in the news. They are a number I can see with timber cladding in part of the similar age with similar prices. It’s a common style in the area.

I'm hoping that property information forms get updated with questions around cladding soon to avoid situations like this one as people will be explicitly asked.

It is really unfortunate but I don't think there is any recourse.

I agree there’s no recourse, but I think it needs rectifying and improving as a system.

I’m surprised at the complete lack of sympathy from most for a first time buyer falling into this though. I was in retrospect probably just far luckier when I was a similar age. I probably could have been caught out at the same age by this.

I don’t think anyone is lacking in sympathy . Not has anyone said its all ok and the professionals involved are beyond reproach.

But you asked if they could get their money back and most people think they can’t.

If it’s a low rise property under 18m tall with some timber cladding and no ACM, why do you think it will be a B2 on the EWS1?

Are there balconies with timber floors? If so these can be replaced with metal and residents banned from using combustible furniture and having BBQs.

Are there proposals to mitigate the risk , such as replacing the timber panels . This is not too expensive on a low risk property.

Another option is fitting inter linked fire alarms .

I've been caught out by lots of stuff, I was thinking about it this morning...if no one tells you about building regs (for example) how are you supposed to know? We had our roof repaired and ended up replacing that part and swapping out some old skylights. No one told me I needed council sign off, so I didn't get it and wasn't even aware it was a thing. Now I'm needing to explain myself to my buyers solicitor and provide indemnity insurance (only £12).

Our neighbour did some work that we should've had a party wall agreement for, but I didn't know that. It was only good luck that they agreed to fix some damage they caused.

There's so much stuff you learn but people just expect you to know...

@Andthenanothercupoftea. It’s usually on your Council website.

And who installed your new skylight windows ? I’m sure their paperwork would have said that it was your responsibility to check if your alternation needed planning permission or a building warrant.

Did you Google it?

It’s a bit like the women who move into their boyfriends house, have his baby, give up their job to look after his baby and are then shocked to discover that they have no right to live in his house /a share of his savings / pensions when he dumps them.

It’s funny how men always seem to know this top secret information .

They all say “ But why did no one tell me? “. 5 mins on google or MN would have answered that.

But they are the same ones who were preaching to anyone who would listen

“ Marriage is just a piece of paper. It doesn't prove your love. Only snobs look down on those who aren’t married . He loves me and my baby and he will always treat up fairly even if we split. Besides his family adore me”.

Most legal documents / contracts / authorisations are not just “ a piece of paper “.

Ok I’ll stop ranting now

@Andthenanothercupoftea I totally get what you are saying, and I thought I’d come back in light of the response you’ve got.

I presume you didn’t do the work yourself, you paid builders who didn’t mention the need for a sign off. You relied on them, and when they announced a small extra job you didn’t realise it changed things. I’m also guessing you haven’t done building work before, or has anyone close to go, so you didn’t know. That is understandable , we grow up differently and are exposed to different information.