WWYD? A house move one.

[GreenSofaRedThrow]

WWYD? I'll caveat this with a giant "first world problems" upfront, and a name change because it's outing.

Briefly, DH, DD (3) and I live in a large two bed flat. I'm expecting DC2 and 3 later this year (boy and girl, if it matters). When I say "large two bed flat" - it's over 1,000sq ft and also has a "study" / third windowless room that was originally part of one of the bedrooms and then carved off at somepoint. It has an internal window to another bedroom. There's a garden, accessed round the side only. It's Victorian, and we're on the 1st floor between two neighbours. We're in an expensive area - this flat is worth over £600k now. There are rarely larger flats on the market (combination of market+ housing style). Houses here fetch £1.2-£1.5m.

Few other things -

• DD is due to start school next Sept ('22), so submitting school choices next Jan. There's a great 4-18 school in our neighbourhood that we'd like her to go to. This year it'd be marginal if she got in because they had a zillion siblings, but in other years she easily would.

• We've no idea if long term we want to stay orleave thecountry. We're not from here, I'm not loving the combined effects of Brexit and covid (who is?).

• Our finances are a bit odd. We could sell everything (shares, other properties) and have enough money to buy a house in the area but neither of us really want to. DH doesn't like the typical style of property, I think they're too big and high-maintenance, we broadly want DH to be able to scale back on work slowly and taking on a giant mortgage isn't consistent with that.

• If you move 1cm outside our area (and the school catchment) prices drop 30% or more. The primary schools are all broadly good but we'd then potentially have an issue at secondary if we hadn't left the country by then.

• Our ideal is buying something very run down or even a plot of land and doing it to our liking. Our neighbourhood is a Victorian conservation area so derelict plots are thin on the ground and building regs are draconian.

• DH currently uses the study to work and will likely continue needing to WFH a few days a week for ages yet.

• Our flat is a bit special in its design; large, unusual for the area and with a huge garden. I hate having no direct access to it but once we're out there I've basically got a full size allotment on the go and another 60 sq m of lawn. It'd be unlikely that we could have the same again.

So - what would you do?
a) Stay put. Babies can be in with us/in the windowless room for a while yet, after DD gets a school place you can start considering your options.

b) Stay put but do some work to current place - get rid of study, or swap study and bathroom, or leave study as is but swap larger bedroom (ours) for DCs and they can all share thelarger room in time. Don't move unless you know you're actually staying in this country.

c) Spend more than we'd like on a house in the area now.

d) Start looking now for a larger place, out of area, before the chaos of newborn twins kicks in; DD can always go to whichever primary and you've no idea what things will be like come secondary school anyway.

e) Some other thing?

WWYD?

A diagram, because it’s Mumsnet.

Think I would choose option b, my only caveat is double prams are not lightweight, also is your daughter currently a good walker? I imagine carrying babies up and down the stair would get tiresome quickly. Do you have somewhere to store the pram on the ground floor?

I would look at houses out of the catchment area. Your DH needs the space, your babies will very soon need more space, and your daughter will I'm sure thrive in a different school.
No school is perfect but most are absolutely good enough and if your dd has supportive parents who read to her and talk to her (which I'm sure she does) I'm sure she'll shine wherever she is.
Good luck!

The school seems your main draw to where you are now, but your flat will not work beyond the next, say five years if you swap bedrooms and have the kids all I'm together (and just how much is your eldest going to appreciate getting two roomates)? How will your personal financial situation have changed? Do you work? Childcare for three is a lot. So is having five people and one bathroom. Redesigning a flat is a PITA.
You really need a four plus bedroom house if you need a wfh space too.
Check out the policy of the school if your child were to get a place then you move slightly out of the area - does the child lose their place? Do the other kids lose chance of getting a place or does sibling policy override that?
I don't think you can make too many decisions today on what may or may not happen about leaving the country in the future. You live here now and will soon have three kids, and one near school age. That's your dilemma- space vs school.
The option of leaving the catchment area is attractive though. It will be some years before secondary, and if the primaries are reasonable, then you can have the space you need. And you could reassess in five years. And where do the other kids go for secondary? Is it that much inferior to your preferred school?

I think you might find things very tight in there with 5 of you, even babies. We had a large 2 bed flat when our 2 were little, but even that was feeling cramped by the time they were 3 and 6. Are there larger flats you could afford on catchment that your DH might like more than thehouses?

I think I’d explore option b, so find out how much it would cost to swap the bathroom round with the study so you’ve got an extra bedroom or depending upon size splitting the bedroom in two, and maybe an office in the garden if it’s large?

Maybe not in the first year or two, but my b/g twins needed their own rooms as they escalate naughty behaviour between themselves and they sleep so much better now they’re apart (they’re 3). I don’t have any other children, but I’d have had their same sex sibling share a room if I did.

It doesn’t seem like you want to move out of area or take on a massive mortgage to stay in the same area. Depending upon how far along in your pregnancy you are the above is what I’d do, if the works would take you in to very late pregnancy/newborn stages I’d be tempted to leave it until after the babies were born and see how things pan out!

I think I would buy a house in your current area. You can always sell it if you decide to leave the country; it would be an investment.

But really, on that score, I think you need to think seriously about that and make your minds up one way or the other quite soon. It gets harder for children to be uprooted and move the older they get; once they are settled into an area with school and friends they can find it very upsetting, especially if you are moving to a different country/language/school system.

Juggling three children up and down stairs and into a garden that has no direct access to your flat won’t be fun. A friend of mine with baby twins had this scenario (without an older one) and she found it such a hassle that she rarely took them out there. They moved to a house for this reason.

Thanks all.

Are there larger flats you could afford on catchment that your DH might like more than thehouses?

Rarely. There's one on the market now that has precipitated this post, because now we have a stark choice - £850k for a 1400sq f four-bed flat in area, or the same money for a house slightly outside of it. They are rarely available.

@Livingintheclouds
How will your personal financial situation have changed? Do you work? Childcare for three is a lot. So is having five people and one bathroom. Redesigning a flat is a PITA.

We don't know. If things stay as is we're fine - DD will be in school, DH is the main breadwinner, I work around him earning far less and we use childcare for two or three half-days a week. Maybe I'll fine that unworkable with two littlies, who knows? Currently DD does her 15 free hours and we spend another £250/month on a few hours a week with a nanny. DH earns a lot in shares through his work, as well as salary, and those shares have performed reliably for years though again we don't bank on them.

And where do the other kids go for secondary? Is it that much inferior to your preferred school?

Secondary provision is fine for girls, patchy for boys. But then again we're talking 7+ years in the future, and the crap schools may be wonderful by then and the good schools terrible. And the school we like used to be "I'll sell my granny to send DC there" whereas now you do see a minority of parents taking a chance on a few of the other options.

Check out the policy of the school if your child were to get a place then you move slightly out of the area - does the child lose their place? Do the other kids lose chance of getting a place or does sibling policy override that?

At the moment the sibling policy works in our favour but again, who knows if it will change?

@Didicat I imagine (as with DD) that we'd leave the pram in the communal hallway (the neighbours are a pretty reasonable bunch and also have their surfboards etc in there), or in the boot of the car. That's another big con - no driveway, no allocated parking. DD is happy marching up and down the stairs because we trained her, but yes it will be harder with 2/3/shopping/school bags etc.

@VenusClapTrap yes, on leaving. Tbh DH has always been ready to leave, I've loved it here. I live in a wonderful community that I'm very involved with and until recently that was enough but I'm getting disillusioned and the cost of living in London with three DC rather than the two I ordered is a big part too. I was moved myself age 5/6 and turfed into a school where I didn't speak the language; I promised I wouldn't do that to mine and yet here we are.

I’d definitely look into the cost of changing the study and bathroom around. It would surely add value and make your house more sellable with a proper third bedroom if you decide to move in the future.

There are so many unknowns in your situation that it is very hard to make a decision, it would honestly be guesswork and you may find it very stressful (and realise you haven't made the best decision).

I also wouldn't move from your large flat, with large garden and a great school (as long as you do get in). However, I would definitely swap bathroom and windowless study and do it now before you have the babies as this will improve the way you live and increase the value of your flat. Regards bedrooms, you can always put the girls in together and have the boy twin on his own (or any other combination depending on need etc.). I would also look at the idea of a home office in the large garden.

You will have your hands full enough for the next two to five years so this would give you time to breathe and take stock. The last thing you need would be a renovation project etc. Later on you will probably be able to make the decision to stay or leave (the flat, the country...)

I also found London just brilliant for babies and young children. We left eventually but I am glad I stayed for that part, just so easy for buggies and so much to do that is easily accessible and free. Start thinking about buggies, tandem (with board for your DD to stand on) rather than side by side is better on transport and in shops etc. in my experience. I loved the community too and miss it!

I would move, because of the home working thing. I don’t understand where you can fit in the babies and a study, it sounds like it will all become very stressful

We were and still are (nearly 10 years later) in a very similar position to you OP.

Our home is a very small house, rather than a flat - but I think you might have more space than we do or about the same - our garden is a back yard.

There were so many unknowns that we became frozen and unable to make a decision as to what to do. That's why we're still here now - because the list of unknowns has kept growing.

I think Grimbelina's suggestions are excellent. The office in the garden is a very good idea. I wish we had the space to build one.

The only thing I would add is that the longer you live there it is possible that your roots in the area might grow deeper. The children will make friends at school and if it is a good school and they are very happy you may not want to move them.

Looking back we always thought we would ultimately leave London, but we never did - and it would have been better to have got the big mortgage and bought a bigger place back then because now we are priced out and properly stuck. This may not happen to you though - and prices are so high at the moment it feels as if they can only fall ... but we thought that 10/5/2 years ago and it's never happened.

if you might leave the country, id seriously consider doing that before they start school

I also found London just brilliant for babies and young children.

There’s London and London though. It depends which part. I had dc1 in London then moved out to the countryside when dc2 came along. It was far, far better for children where we moved to.

Here are a few ways of looking at this OP.

Is it likely you will stay in London until your DC finish school? If yes, then buy a house. You can afford it, you will have a lovely home and space - especially as your DH can work from home. Tax wise, a home is a great investment as you do not pay tax on your capital gains. SO, when you decide to move on, at a later age, you can downsize and have the capital gains tax free ( and even if there is a world-wide crash, over the period of 15-20 years, you will always have capital gains on the property - plus you have a home that is spacious enough for 5 plus WFH DH).

If you plan to leave within 5 years, then I would keep your current home and do plan B (change the bathroom and bedroom).

My friend lives in a smaller apartment in London with 2 teens and her DH has WFH since March 2020 and they all manage - but you need to be ruthless with possessions - there really is only enough room for everyone to have minimal clothes and "stuff" like toys etc.

Also remember, that 5 years can easily become 10 - said friend was only moving for 5 years so picked a small apartment in a fab location - they are now there 7 years and will not be moving, as the DC intend to go to college in the UK (they had planned on a 5 year move to the UK for her DH's work).

It won't be simple to swap the bathroom and study, I don't think, or it would already have been done. You can get water into a room fairly easily, but getting it out again not so much; drainage is a big issue, especially in a flat. Not impossible, but not cheap.

@Thecazelets I’m minded to just get a plumber in to quote. The uplift on a 3rd proper bedroom isn’t to be sneezed at either. Ideally I’d like to keep the loo and a small sink in a corner of the current bathroom (it’s already just by the door as you come in) to solve two problems at once. That room has lower ceilings than the rest of the flat but that’s the only downside I can see.

@Annasgirl I think that’s a great way to look at it, thank you. I think what it doesn’t factor in the effect on our income and obligation to work if we go down the house route, but at least it sets out the position starkly.

I can't advise on property but I just wanted to say have a good think and talk with your DH about your possibly leaving the country plans now and try to resolve it and have a longer term plan agreed.
I have a few friends and family who moved abroad when young child free adults and started families always intending to come "home" to raise them.
None of them have actually returned if they waited until their children started school.
It's one thing to move a preschool child whose primary relationships are family and caregivers they will leave on starting school anyway and a completely different thing to uproot a child with their own local relationships and who have absorbed the cultural norms where they were born and have grown up.
Also if references are made to "when we move" with no actual plan it can leave them unsettled when they are old enough to absorb what's being said around them.
Best of luck with your twins.

If you truly think you'll move country then I'd stay and rejig the flat. In all honesty, you can have 3 DC in the one room for a good few years.

We bought a 2 bed house in London, not intending to stay forever. We sold it after 7.5 years and moved home to Australia.

Dd1 was 7.5 when we left. She went to a little country school when we first got to Aus for a term while we were living with my parents.

We then moved her again when we bought our current house in Melbourne.

My long winded point is, don't be afraid to move your DC once they start school if you need to. I'm not saying move around fecklessly, but that moves do sometimes need to happen.

Oh and I always said 'when we move home' for years without actually having a plan to do so @M0rT. It didn't unsettle them, it meant they weren't surprised at all when it finally did happen.

@M0rT that was what was done to me (well, “done to me” sounds dramatic, but iyswim). I integrated, picked up English etc but my parents never did. And then I moved to England as a young adult, by myself. One of the hardest things about leaving for me is that I feel very well integrated and accepted here, speak the language, can read the culture, understand the nuances of communication, understand the bureaucracy and school system. And it’s painful to imagine leaving all that. DH (from a different country, learnt English much later) doesn’t have that integration and really battles - he’s fine career-wise because he’s very good at what he does but doesn’t cope well with lots of other aspects of living here.

It’s really difficult. We’ve been going back and forth for years.

I also agree with the previous poster about not getting too worried about moving children and schools.
We did everything right, moved to an area that is famously desirable for schools both secondary and primary and ended up moving the youngest at primary then moving both at secondary. Sometimes things you do not expect pop up and you are still motivated to do what’s best for your children and sometimes that involves a school move.
My DC are fine they have had a well rounded experience.
I think a big flat in a nice part of London sounds great, one floor living is good, but I think I would find the disconnect with the garden difficult as we spent so much time outside, we still do and eat outside a lot.

I didn't mean you had to move soon or not at all I just meant you should try get a plan in your head because as life goes on and children grow the obstacles to a move grow with them.
With a longer term plan your decisions on house/flat renovation get easier.
If the secondary school won't be needed for example you don't need to factor that in.
It's sounds like your ideal would be a flat renovation and your DC in the good school nearby and staying put but maybe your DH is keener on leaving so you don't want to override his wishes?
It is hard when one of you fits in better where you are than the other.