Has anyone got German Radiators?

[GlitterBicuits]

Hi

We live rurally so have limited options for heat.

We currently have bankrupting storage heaters.

I'm considering swapping to 'German Radiators'. Which, as I understand are slightly similar to traditional storage heaters. In that the core remains warm after they have been switched off. They seem to have good reviews and are around the same price as a replacement more efficient storage heater.

Although the electricity price per kilowatt hour to run them in the daytime would be more expensive, potentially they would be on for just a few hours per day. Although I work from home so they will be on here more than if I had a different job.

I'll be glad to hear from anybody who has these. Thanks

We had two of these rads fitted when we refurbished our old flat, which originally just had old storage heaters. As much as one can like a radiator, I thought they were good - as you say, the core retains the heat, so they have the feel a traditional central heating system. It was a small flat though with neighbours above, below and to the sides, so it never needed much heating other than in the depth of winter - I can’t really advise on their cost-effectiveness. The rads were expensive when compared to equivalent panel heaters so I’m not fully convinced we made this money back in lower bills - I’ll happily convince myself that they added some value when we sold.

hahahahaha

all electric heaters transform 1kW of electrical energy into 1kW of heat energy.

paying more for an expensive heater does not change this fact.

salesmen will try to make you believe otherwise

possibly you will get a warm glow from knowing you have purchases a high-priced product.

@PigletJohn I'm avoiding all sales people.

We just want to stay warm but spend less money.

As I understand it they are not a great deal different to standard plug in radiators but they don't cool down as quickly.
Something like a mid point between storage heaters and freestanding radiators?

The other option is an upgraded storage heater, like a Quantum.

I've been going back and forth on how to upgrade from our old storage heaters too.

This long thread on moneysavingexpert discussing the issues with some of them well which may be of help though I haven't yet my mind up about it either.

Rural property here. Our next door neighbour bought the 1800's house which was fitted with ancient storage heaters (previous occupants used to wear their coats indoors). No option for central heating (no gas) or underfloor (ancient wooden floors) etc so he went for the kind of heaters you are talking about. He is now warm.
They are a LOT better designed than the very inefficient ones he replaced. The company he used were brilliant in that they did a great survey of the house and each heater was the perfect size to heat the room well but not too much - goldilocks would approve. They look really smart and warm up much faster than the old ones and come on at all the right times. So the house is MUCH more thermally comfortable.
However electricity is the most expensive fuel for heating, so as a pp said, 1kw of energy is still 1kw of energy and that method of heating will not give you low heating bills compared to gas/oil.
But they will keep you warm, sometimes are the only option in rural homes and are cheaper than massively inefficient old electric storage heaters.

" are cheaper than massively inefficient old electric storage heaters." in the sense that you won't have them coming on at the wrong times, running them for ages before you get warm etc. Price p/Kw is exactly the same of course.

Yep. You are being bullshitted by all this. Most people believe pigletjohn, a male username works wonders on here - they are right.

Tariff? Economy 7 or 10? Or just install an oil boiler.

off-peak electricity used to be about half price, but the price difference seems to be reducing. If you can get cheap electricity, and are home during the day or have a large hot water cylinder and no gas, it can still be worthwhile. You might be able to give away or sell your old storage heaters if the are reasonably modern, they are very useful to have solar power who can heat them for nothing, in a hall or bathroom for example.

I am very fond of oil-filled radiators, which give a more even and gradual heat. useful in the bedroom of a person in poor health when the CH is not needed.

The point that some heaters are slow to cool down is balanced by the fact they are equally slow to warm up. Storage radiators the most, oil-filled and possibly your German heaters not so much, fan heaters not at all.

Thermostats and timers avoid wastage by only heating at the times and to the temperatures you wish.

If gas heating is available to you it is much cheaper than any form of electric heating (except, on sunny days, solar).

It would cost too much to install bottled gas or oil tank central heating, we have no radiators or pipes.

The only option is some some sort of electrical heating.
We have Economy 7. We have an immersion heater in the tank for hot water. We run this and things like the dishwasher etc on timers to take advantage of cheaper rates.

But there isn't as much in it as there used to be

Electricity Day Unit Rate:
19.9668p per kWh
Electricity Night Unit Rate:
13.0725p per kWh

The storage heaters must be over 25 years old so technology should have moved on.

I suppose gas and oil will run out but electricity will alway exist, however it's generated.

Hi,

Can I ask what you decided on in the end and how it worked out?

We are in exactly the same situation! We have electric only and no option for Gas or pipework. We currently have ancient storage heaters which are terrible to use and costing a fortune. We are therefore looking to upgrade but are scared of increasing the cost if we get it wrong - we want to bring it down not up. We are looking at new storage heaters, electric oil filled radiators and ceramic core German radiators. As we work from home we need warmth during the day. But if I'm correct storage heaters use around three times the input wattage vs the output wattage so whilst you may be getting cheaper rates on economy 7, if you using 3 times the wattage and only have the choice between on or off wouldn't this be more expensive that electric radiators on a standard tarriff? We're keen to find out if ceramic core / German electric heaters are cheaper than oil filled electric heaters to run or not? They supposedly retain the heat for longer so require less electricity to keep warm. Whilst 1k = 1k, wouldn't it be more efficient if the core keeps the heat longer ie a bit like storage heaters but on a smaller scale? Any advice would be much appreciated!

• All heaters have an efficiency rating.
• That tells you how well it converts fuel into warmth.
• So.. If you put in 1Kwh of electricity or gas or oil and you get 1Kwh of warmth out... That's 100% efficiency. The higher the efficiency the better (most new heating systems will be 90+ efficient) But... You also need to know the cost of the unit of fuel to work out which is cheaper. *So if a gas boiler is 90% efficient (new one should be at least that) and gas costs £1 p/kWh ... And the electric heater is 90% efficient but electricity costs £2 p/kWh... The electric one will cost twice as much to run for the same amount of warmth.

So that's easy, simple maths of unit cost X efficiency.

Once you've got that comparison made you can compare the basic heating system itself.

However, the unit cost part can vary +/- for instance -

The storage heater can use electricity at night and take advantage of the economy 7 tariff... Cheaper electricity... That might balance out any lack in efficiency.
An air source heat pump can perform at 300% efficiency... Making electric costs similar to gas... But only if it runs efficiently (long and low) instead of inefficiently (high and fast) so you can only get those efficiencies if you can have slow heat input i.e. a well insulated house.

• Using free fuel makes a difference so if you have solar panels that can bring your costs down too.
• Having special tariffs can make a difference, so if you have a smart meter and are able to use some of the specialist off peak tariffs that can make a difference.

So the technology / device is only part of the story. But it's a good start.
Compare the fuel cost combined with the efficiency to know the running costs.

Hi,

Thanks for your reply! As mentioned though we do not have the option for gas or a heat pump so I'm really just looking for a comparison of electric radiators, namely German style magmatic / ceramic radiators and oil filled electric radiators as these are the only options we have. I'm interesting in a comparison of the running costs of both. We currently have old storage heaters which we are looking to replace as they are very expensive to run. I'm guessing the magmatic German radiators are able to keep the heat a bit longer (a bit like a light version of a storage heater) v's oil filled elec radiators? Any additional knowledge of experience would be much appreciated!

@Lia884 i think @PigletJohn and @RealisticSketch have summarized it quiet well already.
The storage heaters are slower to heat up, slower to dissipate heat. Oil filled are quick to heat up, quick to dissipate the heat.
If you are heating at night on a cheap tariff then the storage heaters will dissipate the cheap heat during the expensive tariff time. Whereas the oil filled would be running on the expensive tariff to get heat out of them.
So I guess the question is, how much are you paying for electricity at night/during the day?

Also, why can’t you get an ASHP or GSHP? Just the expense?

@Lia884 · 27/09/2024 15:07

"But if I'm correct storage heaters use around three times the input wattage vs the output wattage"

No, you are not correct.

You may have mentioned you couldn't use a heat pump, but I included it in my explanation anyway, as an illustration of the concept I was trying to explain.

So if you can't use a technology that adds in free heat (heat pump or solar etc).

Then all you can do is compare the efficiency which is the ratio of energy in (in the form of electric) versus energy out (in the form of warmth). The higher the efficiency the more heat you get for your money.

If the devices are very similar in efficiency (most modern heaters will be 90%+) then the costs will be basically the same... Whether they release the heat slowly or quickly is irrelevant for the running costs question.

The only other way one device will be cheaper to run (if the efficiency is similar) than the other is if it allowed you to use the energy you buy at a cheap time (storage heaters draw energy at night which could (if you have the right meter) mean you are using cheap electricity to create heat.

Sorry I meant over double the wattage. Which it is, a 1500 watt storage heater has in input of 3300 watts and an output of 1500 watts. If your benefitting from just over half price energy rates at nighttime but are having to use over twice the input wattage to get what you need during the day, I'm not sure I see the benefit?

We are currently on EDFs Economy 7 which is around 13.8p at night and 30.1p during the day. If we switched to a flat rate we'd be looking at around 22-25p around the clock as Eco7 day rates are more expensive than flat rates. We cannot get a heat pump as we are in a top floor apartment and they are not available for apartments. With regards to storage heaters I'm not sure I see the benefit and whilst you can utilise roughly half price energy rates at night, you have to use over double the input wattage to generate enough heat for the day ie 3300w input vs 1500w output. 3300w x 7hrs x 13.8p to get 1500w output during the day = £3.18; whereas 1500w x 7hrs x 23p = £2.41. With regards to electric radiator options surely a devises ability to retain heat would affect how long it needs to be on for during an avg hour? Water filled radiators loose their heat very quickly meaning they would need to be on almost constantly whereas the idea/tech behind storage heaters mean the bricks retain the heat generated during the night all day and therefore don't need to draw energy in the day. Wouldn't the same apply to any technology that helps retain heat for longer ie magmatic or ceramic or oil if they do indeed work? If it helps these are the kind I'm looking at: https://www.electricradiatorsdirect.co.uk/ecostrad-klasse-iq-wifi-controlled-vertical-electric-radiator-anthracite/
https://www.heatershop.co.uk/electric-radiators/vertical-electric-radiators/rointe-palaos-vertical
https://www.southerncountiesheatingsolutions.co.uk/radtherm-electric-radiators

These are the kind of options we are currently looking at:
https://www.electricradiatorsdirect.co.uk/ecostrad-klasse-iq-wifi-controlled-vertical-electric-radiator-anthracite/
https://www.heatershop.co.uk/electric-radiators/vertical-electric-radiators/rointe-palaos-vertical
https://www.southerncountiesheatingsolutions.co.uk/radtherm-electric-radiators
Wouldn't a radiators ability to retain heat affect how long it needs to be on for during an avg hour? Water filled radiators loose their heat very quickly meaning they would need to be on almost constantly whereas the idea/tech behind storage heaters mean the bricks retain the heat generated during the night all day and therefore don't need to draw energy in the day. Wouldn't the same apply to any technology that helps retain heat for longer ie magmatic or ceramic or to a lesser extend oil?
With regards to storage heaters I'm not sure I see the benefit as whilst you can utilise cheaper energy rates at night, you have to use over double the input wattage to generate enough heat for the day, ie 3300w input to get 1500w output. 3300w x 7hrs x 13.8p = £3.18; whereas 1500w x 7hrs x 23p = £2.41. Plus having a storage heater on for 7 hours at night when you only need a quick jolt of heat during the day (during autumn and spring and any milder days) is very excessive. Obviously we don't want to waste money buying more expensive radiators if they aren't going to provide any benefits over cheaper options, but we are trying to find options that will keep our bills to a minimum. We are used to gas but sadly only have electric in our new place.

If your home holds heat well, then a heater which provides heat long and low provides a more stable thermal environment.

Even a heater than can emit a high burst of heat can usually be set to heat long and low instead... and you just ask for a burst of heat if you need to quickly heat it up.

If you have a heater gives out lots of heat quickly so you then want to turn it off soon, you will have spikes of heat and then gradual cooling.
Which is not what most people want most of the time.

So the efficiency is the measure of how much power you have to use to create X amount of heat... That's gives you the running costs in terms of the technology you are choosing between (combined with your tariff).

But then there is type usage pattern which also influences your running costs.

You are asking for which heater is 'better', that's an efficiency question .. but no one here can know what your usage pattern would be which is a question involving more complex details...

Whether you fully benefit from the heat you have bought will depend on how well your house holds the heat. If your house loses heat quickly, you will need to run it more at a higher setting.

In an ideal world your house would lose heat slowly, then you can run your heater low during all cold hours and you will be not too hot or too cold all day long... So the way these different devices provide heat is as much about which pattern is comfy for you in your house as it is about the electricity bill you would get in theory.

So when you choose one, you're thinking about running costs which is (efficiency x tariff)

But also thermal comfort which is can you maintain a steady constant temperature. Which is about the relationship between how your heater puts out heat and how your house holds heat.

If you stand 2 heaters side by side and they both have 90% efficiency but one trickles the heat out...and one puts it out in bursts every time the thermostat drops you will use those two devices differently depending on which one makes you feel the cold sooner... Which depends on how stable the house is thermally... So, though they would both cost the same amount to run, one may end up costing you more because you demand more heat out of it...

So which heater is better will depend on your house, as well as the heater itself iyswim.

If your heater can keep up with the heat loss you will let it run steadily in the background... And that will be the cheapest that heater can be... Another heater would be cheaper if it was more efficient... Which is why houses are assessed to say how many kWh per M2 heat they need to be thermally comfortable...

Which is why it is hard for anyone here to fully answer your question.

Hopefully this information helps you work out our for your circumstances. Heater efficiency + tariff + thermal envelope of property + thermal comfort preferences

Thank you for your reply! I can't find an efficiency rating on any of the options we are looking at including the links above. We have had the space assessed as requiring 3300 watts and it EPC rating of C. We were looking at getting smart electric radiators no matter which option we go for so we can set the temperate at something like 22 degrees and the radiator will automatically maintain the temperature. Which is why we were wondering whether magmatic, ceramic core, oil or any others were better.

The information should be in the technical specification.

Magnetic, ceramic or oil is just the material used as a 'heat battery' ... It is part of the design, the collective effect of which is the efficiency.

But all of those heaters will basically create a hot surface which will warm the air which will move around and the warmth will spread through the house by convection mostly with a bit of radiant/conducted heat as a smaller percentage.

You are heating the air and that heat transfers itself to other things in the space like the table etc...

As a curve ball you could get Infrared heaters (like patio heaters but not as stupidly powerful and expensive) - they are very efficient but heat objects instead of air, so kinda the other way round (it's radiant heat, so like the sun you/things are warmed when you are in line of sight). Create less air movement so don't feel as draughty, but need line of sight to warm things...

Works well in an open space or as part of the mix.

https://www.herschel-infrared.co.uk/infrared-heating-panels/

Wrong.

The efficiency of electric heaters is very easy to calculate.

You put in 1kWh of electrical energy and they give out 1kWh of heat energy.

They all do that, however little or however much you pay for the heater. German design or Italian aluminium make no difference whatsoever.

Wrong? It's not wrong though Piglet John. Look at the specs for storage heater online, or speak to any retailer that sells them. A 1500 Dimplex Quantum storage heater for example uses 3300 input wattage and outputs 1500w.

"Wrong? It's not wrong though"

Yes, it is.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can only change form. 1kWh of electrical energy turns into 1kWh of heat energy.

Not less, not more. No matter what kind of heater you use

The specs probably mean that it releases the 1500 watts of heat gently for one hour but is only actually being heated for 27 minutes at 3300 watts.

Otherwise, the first law of thermodynamics is going to need some revision.