Survey results — what should we do now? :(

[DisappointedFTB]

I'm feeling really shit right now. Today we got the building survey report back for a house we really liked and thought was in great condition (our understanding that there would be very little work needed on it was a big draw for us), and it turns out that there is some pretty major work that needs doing.

The most significant is that the loft conversion, which was advertised as a bedroom, apparently can't technically be classed as a habitable room. It's not just about fire doors and the like (though that is part of it) — the surveyor believes that the floor strength would not currently meet building regulation requirements. We haven't yet seen any building works certificates from the vendor (though apparently they are forthcoming for other works in the house), but we think it's possible that the conversion even predates their ownership of the house, so we may not be able to find out either way without getting in a structural engineer.

I don't know what to do. We were so convinced it was going to be smooth sailing, and had been planning our lives in the new place, and now this. Because it was advertised as having 6 bedrooms, but actually only has 5, how much does that change the value of the house? The survey literally referred to it as a 5-bedroom house the whole way though. Should we be trying to negotiate, and if so, by how much? Are we likely to succeed? We don't need the 6th bedroom right now, so could afford the time to do work on it, but I certainly don't want to be paying over the odds if it's not as advertised, and there is also the stress factor. But I will still be very sad if we have to pull out, as we haven't seen anything else suitable within our price range in that area (and for various reasons we will only consider buying in this particular area).

Another worrying thing on the survey was about how some slipped roof tiles are "an indication that the roof could require re-covering within the next few years" — this sounds like some potentially very expensive work.

What should we do? Has anyone had success negotiating on these sorts of grounds before? I was really hoping to avoid all of this, and now I'm really anxious.

If the surveyor is a Home Buyers Report the there should be a valuation on there somewhere. Have you cheked the report thoroughly?

Indemnity Insurance is insurance against enforcement action by the council, not against any structural failures of the house.

@MotherOfGodWeeFella If the vendors haven't done a detailed survey themselves and missed this issue, then it is their problem. They will obviously dispute this but @DisappointedFTB has a very good reason to contest their valuation.
In today's inflated market, eager buyers might ignore these points and pay over the odds, but when normal conditions resume, they will struggle to sell this property on same terms.

We bought a 4 bedroom house that had a very similar loft conversion (ie a supposed 5th bedroom).

It was a repossession & we felt we paid a fair price regardless of the number of bedrooms.

We ummed & ahhed about what to do with the loft room, and ultimately just took the stairs out (which went into a bedroom & made that room less pleasant), put a loft hatch in, & used it as a loft space again. Also had to re do the roof!

If you do buy it be very clear to your insurance company exactly how many habitable rooms it has. There was a case years ago in the press of a house that sadly burned down and the insurance company wouldn't pay the rebuild costs due to a discrepancy over whether the loft was a bedroom or not.

@DblEspresso - yes, I'm well-aware of that. I've also read lots of posts from sellers whose own survey didn't highlight issues when they were buying which then got flagged when they were selling.

*A few comments from the report:

• This space is classed as not fit for habitation
• It does not comply with modern fire safety regulations.
• Evidence of significant movement was apparent in the floor.
• Levels of insulation may be inadequate.
• As it is not up to current Building Regulation standards, particularly for fire safety, this floor should only be used for light storage, and it cannot be marketed as a “bedroom” in any future sale, which may devalue the property.*

That’d make the attic room a no-go for me. Significant movement in the floor sounds concerning...

Does your solicitor still think you have a chance of getting this done by 30th June now? What if you renegotiate?

I wouldn’t be too worried about the roof, they all need doing at some point, and it seems like standard surveyor speak, but the attic room sounds like more than an old conversion/arse covering.

Can they get building regulations to come out and check it? (Not sure if they do that?) or can you get a builder or someone to check it and quote for what it would cost/entail to bring it up to code Then negotiate the price based on that?

Look, any historical loft conversion is not going to meet current regulations. The ‘only to be used for light storage’ is arse covering.

The only thing you need to be worried about IMO is the ‘significant movement observed’. Call and ask about that. What did he observe? What are the implications? How could it be remedied? Does it have to fixed? Rough idea of cost?

I found surveyors much more open on the phone than via their report.

If you’ve got a home buyers report it should have a valuation in. What is that valuation?

I had FTB and their surveyor getting het up about my ‘loft conversion’ not meeting current building regs. It wasn’t a fucking loft conversion (it was original to the house as evidenced by 1920s photos of the street!) and there were no fucking building regs in 1920. Twats.

Looking at the survey comments this would be my personal reaction:

• This space is classed as not fit for habitation (me:on what basis? Obviously a 1930s build won't be up to modern standards. I would want to know more about when the work took place or if it is infact original to the house)
• It does not comply with modern fire safety regulations.(me:this is obvious, modern fire safety for a loft extension would require all entrances to the stair well to be fire proofed, so it could be that the surveyor is actually making a comment about the stairwell or other doors opening onto the stairwell. I would ask the surveyor to clarify exactly what was observed as lacking. I wouldn't expect an original loft room to be compliant with modern fire safety regs.)
• Evidence of significant movement was apparent in the floor. (me:this i would worry about. I would ask the surveyor to explain what the evidence was and whether it is considered current movement indicative of a structural problem, or whether it is historic movement which I would care much less about:all houses move and settle!)
• Levels of insulation may be inadequate.(me:pft. He can't see the insulation so he has probably just plonked this in as he can see its old and won't have modern insulation. Upgrading insulation in lofts is basic property maintenance and shouldn't put you off
• As it is not up to current Building Regulation standards, particularly for fire safety, this floor should only be used for light storage, and it cannot be marketed as a “bedroom” in any future sale, which may devalue the property. (me: the key issue seems to be the fire regs. I don't think there is any requirement to bring properties up to current regs so I would press the surveyor on this and ask why he is advising it should be in this case. Is there a particularly dangerous issue he has noticed. For example, no opening window or no door in the room etc.)

Good luck

www.myconveyancingspecialist.com/2020/04/09/buying-a-house-with-loft-conversion-without-building-regulations/.

As part of the decision making process, you should consider the likelihood of any serious damage occurring. In reality, how many loft conversions that we carried out without building regulations have actually resulted in the loft collapsing?

That doesn't take away from the fact that the house should not be marketed as a 6 bed if the loft conversion was not compliant at the time of conversion or that if you were to carry out any other alterations requiring building regulations in the future, you may well be required to do some remediation work.

I thought that if a loft room didn't apply to fire regs then it couldn't be advertised as a bedroom. We saw loads of properties that referred to rooms like this as loft rooms and therefore weren't counted as bedrooms for the purposes of pricing.

I wouldn't pay a 6 bed price for a 5 bed which is what it is really.

Is there actually much difference in price between a 6 bed & a 5 bed? I would have thought value is more about the overall size/layout once you're over 5 bedrooms.

The loft room could well comply - see what the paperwork says.

The mention of floor joists is an interesting one - obviously the average person reads 'floor joists not to regulations' & thinks OMG tiny joists - I could fall through the floor!, very unsafe etc etc.
It's actually more to do with the amount of 'bounce' a person is allowed to be able to feel when walking across a floor that the regulations were made in mind of. In practical language, it's the difference between 'negligible' & 'insignificant' levels of movement.

Reflected by common sense, in that a 150+ year old house doesn't require the first floor or even ground floor replacing every time it's sold/remortgaged. The first floor joists in my old house were smaller than the bog standard ceiling ones in my current loft.

Honestly surveys are nearly always a complete waste of time. I've bought 4 houses without them. For me it's no mortgage required = no survey.
Indemnity insurance is also ridiculous in most instances.
When we sold dps house the buyer had a survey and when chatting to him the surveyor said we have to find something. How reassuring.

At the cost of the vendor you could for a structural engineers report and then if that is ok you could apply for retrospective planning permission.

I had this when I first bought and pulled out because it was a 2 bed and the loft conversion was the 2nd bedroom and my child would have slept there. If its an extra room you don't have to use you are probably fine - i would be surprised if there was much of a difference between a 5-6 bed, and it could still be useful as an extra space.

Re building regs, from my understanding, whether you can officially market it as a bedroom depends whether building regs were adhered to for the time it was done, it should be done to the standards of the time. If it was done before building regs came into play, that is fine. If it was more recent, it is more of a problem.

Thanks for all the replies. I'm feeling very sad and sick because I think we're going to need to ask for a large reduction, and I don't know how likely it is that the vendor will agree to that. But I don't think we'll have any other option, since we want the attic to be used as a main living space, and we also hope to put in a bathroom in future. I do know that they don't need the money for another house purchase (they already have the house they're moving into, and they are a well-off retired couple downsizing), but I'm worried that (a) they'll consider it gazundering, and reject out of principle, or (b) they'll decide to just put it back on the market in the hope that the next person will be less bothered (there was other interest in the house, and I believe someone actually upped their offer to 2.2% more than ours after our offer had been accepted, but the vendor said no). I think our offer was accepted mainly because we're cash buyers. We were told that the house was only on the market when we viewed it because a previous offer had fallen through (apparently due to the buyer's chain falling through, though now I can't help wondering). I don't know how much difference these kinds of things are likely to make.

Regarding getting a structural engineer in to check the attic situation, some of you have suggested getting the vendor to pay for that. Is this standard practice? How would we go about that? I feel so awkward and uncertain about this whole process, and I'm worried about making everything fall through when it needn't have, by doing/saying the wrong thing. I'm also struggling with the thought of how much money we'll have wasted on legal fees/surveys etc. if this does fall through. I know it's a very small proportion of the house cost etc. etc., but if we don't end up with a house at the end of it, I know I'll feel really sore.

It's also really hard to find houses that we like, in the location we need, so I'm not convinced we'll find something else suitable and affordable soon, and certainly not one we like as much. But we're not happy about paying the current offer price when so much expense and inconvenience will be required to turn it into what we thought we were paying for.

If you take into account the cost of a loft conversion.. say £60k.. does this then put it out of the range of other 6 bed houses in the area.. bearing in mind that 6 bed houses are rare and difficult to price.

You also say that you are not sure you will find something suitable in the location that you want at the right price, you will have to take this into consideration.

You say they don't need the money as they are retired, downsizing and already have their house.. but you are.. according to your poster name and your post.. a FTB buying a 6 bed house in cash... does that make mean we should assign judgement to you to say you can easily afford this?

Yes... the buyers and estate agents have been dishonest in stating that it is a 6 bed rather than a 5 and if you want to put a bathroom in, you will most likely have to redo the entire loft conversion including the joists, floor and stairs.

Get a quote for a new loft and take it from there.... but do not forget the fact that the house you are looking for may not in fact exist in your location at a price you believe you should pay.

Round where we are (South East), there’s not much difference, price wise between a 5 and 6 bedroom house. In fact many estate agents say that it’s more important to have ensuites/dressing rooms, as opposed to more than five bedrooms. So will often recommend that the sixth room is knocked through into a bedroom to create an ensuite. This is especially true for older properties which are often lacking in bathrooms. How many bathrooms are on your first floor?

Re; your situation, I’d get a quote to insulate and reboard/strengthen the loft (and take this figure off the asking price). It might not be as much as you think.

You can't blame the estate agents as they act on the information they are given by the sellers. They don't check the title documents, check whether planning permission has been obtained for any extensions nor do they ask for building control certificates for work done. It is for buyers to satisfy themselves everything is in order before they exchange.

Ring the surveyor and talk to them. That’s standard. Usually they’ll be helpful on the phone especially to a FTB. Get a quote to strengthen the attic, the vendors should be happy to let you do that. A structural surveyor should help you too.