Buying a place with loft conversion - doubt over building regs

[Doubtsandniggles3]

I began the conveyancing process for the purchase of a 3 bedroom property.

The property was priced, marketed, and advertised as a 3-bed place.

Had the survey done. Surveyor expressed some doubt regards building regulations compliance for the attic conversion (being used as and marketed as, a bedroom). Although he didn't wave a huge red flag at me re structure/safety, he did raise a compliance question mark.

After being alerted to this, I pushed to get to the bottom of it via solicitors - vendor and agent of course insisted it was regulated. Turns out - it was not originally built to building regulations standards for the time, and it also would manifestly not meet today's reg standards (although I appreciate many older buildings would not.) On this basis my solicitor said they would have to raise this with the bank and alert the bank to the fact the loft floor was not compliant with building regs standards.

Then, it turns out the prior owner had retrospectively applied for a certificate of regulation via the Council, and a certificate was produced.

However, the certificate seemed very inconclusive, very cursory, and left a lot of doubt. Looked like a quick tick box exercise. Further, I understand regs for lofts being used as a bedroom are more stringent as opposed to occasional use rooms/storage rooms. Likewise, the further from ground level, the more stringent re fire exit etc. Clearly, the loft room would have not met today's regulatory standards, floor height excluded that. However, I was not satisfied that the retrospective certificate was in any way adequate or sufficient. Place been on the market a long time - I had a niggle. Solicitor also not satisfied with the evidence provided to support regulatory status, and indicated lending may be an issue.

This is what was stated on the certification:

"This certificate only relates to the work described above (loft conversion) and confirms that the works have been regularised under the Building Regulations Act 2010. This should not be taken as an assurance that every part of the construction has been seen or monitored for compliance"

"This certificate is evidence (but not conclusive evidence) that the requirements specified have been complied with."

I have walked away from the purchase and pulled out on this basis. The evidence provided didn't give me faith or confidence, although some may argue it was in fact a certificate or regulation (of sorts).

Have I done the right thing in walking away?

My concern is - the certificate is paltry, and it doesn't provide any detail, and it doesn't provide any refeference to the conversion being suitable for bedroom use. My further concern is that I would be over paying for what is in fact a 2 bed "with loft storage, and a half ditched attempt at proving regulated status." Place was priced and marketed as a 3 bed. Concerned also about taking on the legacy of this and re-sale issues. It leaves a question mark and too much doubt in the air to be comfortable with.

Interested to hear views...

Yep - fair point. I probably am fussing over it / going into depth where others wouldn’t.

1.7m with no dormer - eg full slope on either side. I’m 5’2” and am a single adult home. Not necessarily sure other buyers would take it at face value - been on market and big price reduction since Aug in an area where 3 beds are snapped up within a week.

But yeah possibly am fussing - although - there is context (as there always is). I’ve no pension and as 1 adult to 3 kids, capital in house has to take me all the way through and have worked my butt of to gain mortgage capacity after being lone parent for the past 6 and a half years. We are in over crowding and have been now for years - I share with DD and she and I haven’t had a bedroom each now for 6 yrs. At 9.5 yrs it’s becoming problematic. So I’m fussing - but it’s also a huge purchase and can’t afford to get it wrong - don’t have any other household back up or buffer so equally can’t be glib about this.

But realistically this is also the only way I’d get a 3 bed in the area. And I think being alive to future resale issues (clearly it’s not selling well this time round) is no bad thing ...

Okay so it needs a further price reduction - can you work out what the price should be based on the sq ft that has full height?

The agent/vendor will try to stand firm knowing you have paid for survey etc and hoping you won't pull out

Decide what you are happy to pay and see what they say

Thanks @DonGray and others.

Yes, I’ve put feelers out re price reduction. I think the other side are still feeling sore about it as very much presented it as a bona fide bedroom. I’d in fact more consider it a “bonus room.”

I think the responsibility you are feeling over getting this decision right leads you to compare this option to some perfection that might not exist.

I would park building regs discussion and just consider it as a 2 bed house with glorified storage due to 1.7m height irrespective of what it was/is advertised at. I wouldn't labour the point particularly with the vendors, I'd just reframe it in my own head. Then consider if you would actually be happy living there at the top and whether everything else is fine (you might have missed other important issues whilst agonising over the building regs). I don't agree with the sentiment that if it's 'not very compliant' now then it will be even worse in the future. You could argue just as well that if you're going to live there for a long time (5-6 years) and it suits your needs then the right time to worry about regs is when you sell. It's not clear whether over time people will care less or more about things like building regs and whether regulations will be more strict or more relaxed in 5 years time. I'd accept the uncertainty and focus on the positives - that through hard work and a lot of determination you are now able to get a mortgage, move into a bigger home and improve your housing situation by quite a lot. In the future, when you can do better, you will do even better - no doubt about that!

Some other questions to consider:

• If you pull out, how long have you got to find another option? You can stay put for now but not much longer given your daughter's age. Probably 2 years max - ?
• What are your chances to improve your deposit / mortgage situation over time? Would you hope to be able to afford something much better if you stay put for another 2 years for example?
• How stable is your job? If there are any doubts I'd get a mortgage asap whilst things are good on paper.
• Is this option an improvement over your current situation? By how much? If you're renting for example then I'd argue it's a massive improvement to your current situation.
• Are you realistically able to stretch to something better soon or is 2.5 bedrooms all you can afford at the moment? Can you consider a cheaper area or a different kind of workaround (i.e. house with two reception rooms so that you can use one of them as your bedroom).

These are big decisions that are not meant to be easy. Even harder to make these decisions on your own. Talk to trusted friends, get different perspectives. Also remember that at the end of the day there is no one magic path - with your determination you will find a way whatever you choose to do, really. What matters is that you care, that you know what your goals are and sooner or later you will make it work. All the best.

@SecretOfChange - your post is an example of the sometimes exquisite wisdom, depth and perspective that can be generated within this forum. I thank you, because your post is so pertinent, insofar as it contains nuance, and hints at the fact (correctly) that my thinking has been less organic/holistic than it could have been. I tend to go black/white, all/nothing (common trauma response).

What is a helpful angle I find, sometimes, is to remember that you are the only one living your life. No one else is. Your reality is your reality. And from there, decisions are based.

You are correct, current situ is far from ideal and not very tenable. DD at 9.5. sharing with me in the only actual bedroom in the house/ and twins (7.5) in a sort of "fake" bedroom eg think stud wall within living/eating/kitchen space. So I am accustomed to and well prepared to make non conventional lay outs work. I do now think I got rather too hung up on technicalities of certificates in my quest to get this "right." When in fact, there is no "right." Only a "workable for now" - and this is very valid. Feel like a dick for making such a fuss over regs/ certs etc. Probably due to trying so hard to not compromise anything and yes that added "thinness" in decision making and intensity that is created when the two person buffer is not there.

Trusted friends for perspective - thin on the ground (always working or kids).

And to answer some q's

• Job very secure, and also represents very real potential progression for the future (think healthcare/pulic sector/key worker status but office) - so I could improve prospects, but also am earning at a level where childcare costs are greater per hour than earnings and the painpoint is I'm very much at building career stage, although took transferable skills and went from freelance to something very secure/solid

• yeah, totally, 2 years max in current situ. It's really a one bed. Its owned. but it's hugely unsuitable. 600 sq ft, great for a couple or single person.

• I could improve situ, but there are many moving parts here re logistics/ school runs/ working hours and being at that painful point where 1 income to 3 sets of childcare is insane, but trying to play a long game

• While career prospects for me look decent, actually finding it gruelling too, and right now Im reliant on a substantial step up in income to improve things. Which can be achieved. But at what other cost? And there's always a cost, life has taught me ..

But thank you for the insight. It's the human things that matter. I think price should reflect and recognise the compromise that the room represents. I may try and claw this back.

Situ is that unless I move into rental, I will lose my very motivated and chain free buyer (who took a year and 140 viewings to attain). Spent all day today on rental viewings with a view to proceed with sale of my place and become chain free - but boy is that market brutal, en route to viewings and .."sorry we've had an offer.." but plan is to get a very basic rental to try and not burn through capital, to keep the buyer who took so long to get, safeguard that capital as much as poss... and then strike (still with all the challenges of the area and costs), BUT may give me breathing space without a chain.

Sometimes a situation is "as good as it gets." And that's valid too.

I think I'll try and simply sound out the situ for that place.. and keep an eye on things, while being in rented and chain free, so also able to strike should something else come up.

And I guess... the 2.5 bedroom place may not be attractive to couples who are seeking a "real" 3 bed, but for me, in my situation, it may represent a sneaky way to gain bonus extra space in a postcode where this is unwarranted.

I think rental with 3 kids would be mental in the current economic climate, sorry. Rent tends to go up over time, and you can be asked to leave at any point. Really not a good time to add uncertainty to your situation, and the benefit of being chain free may not make the big enough difference you expect. Either go for your purchase, or alternatively stay where you are.

@SecretOfTime - my thinking was to rent a 2 bed.

But yes, the uncertainty is unsettling, as you point out "chain free" is not a magic ticket and who knows what will come up/ how long I will be renting.

Either way, whether I go for the purchase or not, however, I'd be looking at some sort of interim rental - minimum seems to be 6 month break clause. Because my buyer made offer contingent on meeting certain timescales (stamp holiday has added untold pressure therein).

To stay where I am - we are pre-exchange, surely if I pulled out I'd be liable for some agency fee / abortive costs - have been trying to work out how the land lies here.

I understand that if agency have sourced an "able and willing buyer" - eg done their part, then I can be liable. Ofc I am pre exchange, which helps, but also quite advanced.

So whether I go for that particular purchase or another, to keep my buyer, I'd have to rent - offer was made contingent on a timeline and in built with the negotiations.

Unless I go back to agency and say I need to move into purchased, and is the buyer minded to take that on board... so confusing.

@SecretOfChange - so here is the condumdrum

1. Move into rental to keep buyer. This will eat into some capital, although I shall try and minimise that. Being chain free, and waiting for market to settle MAY generate a better buying landscape, but it also may not.

1. Stay where I am, in hugely untenable set-up, knowing it's a ticking time bomb that I shall have to revisit. Focus on building career to increase options (and keep kids stable in their familiar place/close to school, understandably they are change-averse), although I believe I would be liable for some agency fee/ buyer costs - and probably burn a few bridges too! It's not been an easy sell. And it may not be easy to sell in future - small bolthole close to town, which has become rather moot due to covid....

And to make current place tenable, I will be moving onto sofa bed in living space, that has fake partition with box room.

My thinking was that moving into rental at least creates options (maybe)

And staying stalls options. Although, staying could also mean focussing on the career side to improve options a little further down the line.

Worried now about pulling out - and how agency will take that and what my liability would be.....

We had a large loft conversion about 7 years ago and I can recall having to have a certain head room and stairs had to have head room for mounting. We also had to have larger Velox windows so a person could climb out and fire alarms all over house wired into mains electrics. Plans were submitted and approved and then when it was almost finished a person came out to inspect it to sign it off.

Just from memory I think ours had to have a certain percentage at 2 M headroom.

@FJKP

And to make current place tenable, I will be moving onto sofa bed in living space, that has fake partition with box room.

My thinking was that moving into rental at least creates options (maybe)

And staying stalls options. Although, staying could also mean focussing on the career side to improve options a little further down the line.

Worried now about pulling out - and how agency will take that and what my liability would be.....

Moving into rented gives you options/breathing space but also an added move is a great deal of stress and I'd do what I could to avoid it. But at the same time, I'd prioritise making sure I sold to my buyer so sometimes it's unavoidable!

If you went ahead with this purchase, how many years do you see yourself living there?

As a PP said, these decisions are incredibly tough and stressful - and there are always compromises.

I think if this 2.5 bed suits your needs and you're looking to stay 5+ years then I wouldn't let the niggles about the '3rd' bedroom put me off, but with what you've learned I'd hope the sellers would agree a slight reduction is reasonable.

But if your gut is telling you this isn't the right house, that's understandable, and you'll be glad you pulled out.

The agent won't be happy but they'll be thinking about their commission so don't let them persuade you to continue if you don't want to. You won't have any liabilities.

Thank you @MerryAnton

Truly no liabilities after marketing it and generating 140 viewings and a chain free motivated buyer who has advanced through from search/surveys and is just pre exchange?!!

Very valid points. Renting seems unstable and open-ended and uncertain and yes, HUGELY disruptive when I'm already spread very thin.

But capturing a hard won buyer, and then losing them, and then going to live on a sofa bed in the same room I live, eat, work in is hard too !! No easy choices here at all!!

Yes, I think they say 2M, or 2.2 to allow for insulation, but 2M minimum from door..

People pull out for all kinds of reasons, if you decide that it's your best option, do it. Your kids go first.

Access the damage of pulling out i.e. let's say you might lose 7K in agency fees if you pull out (validate the £££)

Contrast it with your 2.5 bed house price and by how much you believe it is overpriced due to the glorified storage nature of the loft. If it's 10K or less AND you are otherwise happy with the house, then it makes sense for you to suck it up and proceed.

For reducing fog/anxiety in decision making, go into every rabbit hole you fancy (building regs, rental, problems with future sale etc etc) and spend as much as you need exploring each of them. See what information is still lacking that could help you to constructively move things forward. Fill the gaps. Then look at the situation again. Until then don't make any decisions. Wait until you're ready.

If you're considering pulling out because of the buyer's timeline then you should consider negotiating/extending that.

Buyer has put a penalty of 12.5K into the negotiation if I don't meet of June 30. Offer was made contingent on this. This is because they had given prior notice on their rental (which was their choice and not something I would personally do until a purchase was very advanced), and also they were mindful of meeting stamp holiday deadline, so they will look to make up that shortfall. So this left me with no option but to rush/ find somewhere chain free that had zero issues/ or rent - none of which have proved sensible paths. All of which have now been explored in detail. It is understandable that the buyer wanted to make a timeline contingent offer. Now its for me to see if I can work with the proposed 12.5K drop in the offer, and whether that's a worthwhile hit compared to going into renting (and the non monetary costs of that - eg massive disruption!).

Agent of course pushed me toward renting, which I have aimed to realise, although agent and buyer both single guys - I'm the one with the 3 kids and the upheaval that goes beyond my own logistics!

I think - to lay cards on table to agent and explain the problems with getting an interim rental, and actually I need to go from owned property to an onward purchase, and to enter dialogue around that, then the buyer has option to pull out/ or I have option to pull out, if neither path is suitable.

Fact is, I have tried my utmost to meet their timeline. Have heavily and fully explored that and incurred my own abortive costs in that process which caused me to rush/panic. I am prepared to pull out OR negotiate the timeline, so if I frame this as options and choices, rather than a "problem" it may present more powerfully rather than a panicky end-of-road guilty backing out.

Yes, good thinking and it makes your position very clear.

2020-2021 hasn't exactly gone to plan for lots of people so you won't be the first or the last person in a situation like this I'm sure.

If you've offered on this house under the pressure of time constraints and picked one with no onward chain etc, and you have these niggles, then personally I'd definitely pull out.

I bought a house under the same circumstances and pressure and bitterly regretted it! Took me 4 years to finally get out of that one.

In your position, I would either

1. sell and go into rented
2. take yours off the market and try again in 12-18 months

But you have a buyer, your sale is proceeding, you 100% need to move, so I'd pick #1 as the best decision in a difficult situation. In rented you'll have less pressure, more time, and be in a great buying position to snap up a great place with no niggles! And hopefully three proper bedrooms :)

Thank you @MerryAnton

Your insight and that also of @SecretOfChange have helped me navigate a bottleneck of confusion immeasurably.

@MerryAnton - everything you say makes total logical sense. But, alas, it's not quite as straight forward as that..

Renting a 3 bed in this area (NW London albeit next to north circular) would in fact eat my entire monthly salary. So the idea would be to rent the shittest 2 bed I could find, and get a sofa bed for myself. Even then, barely affordable. Clearly, the whole point of this is to get back onto the ladder and thus would need to protect capital. 12 months of renting could dent that big time and leave me "priced out." As @SecretOfChange pointed out, there's actually no guarantee what the market will do and whether being chain free will truly offer me a nice soft landing place. I am working off various unknowns and assumptions with that one.

Also, as I have realised throughout life - money is not our only commodity. Our other key commodities eg Energy / Time / Equilibrium and Inner Wellbeing are also at stake, with what would be a massive, single handed disruption to undertake a single handed interim rental move. I would pay heavily in those too. Plus it's never just rent - deposits always get taken (in my experience, agency fees, move costs etc).

My current place is far from suitable. BUT, it is

• safe
• clean
• familiar to my kids
• pretty low cost to run

I simply cannot say the same for a rental flat. I rushed about madly yesterday doing 6 viewings for rentals. My spirit slowly became more and more despondent as I was passing junkies on exposed stairwells etc (not quite, but you get the picture), and did the maths of how much we'd have left to live on each month.

So, all that considered, and I like what you say @MerryAnton re time constraints, I believe with the help of insightful strangers I have navigated a way how to tackle this, and a way I feel comfortable with.

My offer was made contingent on a timeline. I accepted on that basis. But there was an original recognition that I may not meet that timeline, hence why the buyer built a 'missed deadline penalty' into the negotiation. Although at the time I sort of thought WTF, now, in fact, I am thinking this could be my saving grace.

Because this actually gives me grounds to go back and make this into a Timeline Negotiation of two equally invested parties, rather than that cringingly difficult phone call feeling full of guilt and nerves and loss of face to say I am pulling out.

As you rightly point out, the time constraint here caused me to cut corners.

I have TRIED to meet the timeline. Fact if, my buyer is buying from someone who is not chain free - but has 3 DC settled in local schools. In the buyers and agents minds they thought pressure and the threat of a penalty would make me become chain free. Whereas at this point the penalty is looking like the preferable and most attractive option. It would also be cheaper than 12 months rental/ cheaper than a full aborted agency fee / and mean I can remain in my current place while finding onward purchase. There is a risk buyer would pull out, BUT, that's ok. I have realised interim rental is now out of the question.

I have TRIED to meet the timeline imposed. I have offered on 2 places that didn't work out. I have incurred my own abortive fees. I have advanced the conveyancing process and had to pull out. I have spent 2 days racing around the murkiest corners of NW Lon passing junkies on stairwells trying to find a 2 bed rental I can afford.

It's just not happening.

Plan is - phone agent on Monday. Not act guilty or sheepish or contrite. I have been busting my balls here. Explain the TRUTH - I have lost out on an onward purchase through my fault of my own and incurred abortive fees, and I cannot afford to rent without being priced out and mortgage figures are tight, I would lose deposit and not be able to get back onto ladder.

So, I'd very much like to take the buyer up on the penalty they cleverly input to the negotiation. I expect they wont be happy and will want to impose a further onward timeline - which is ok - BUT it means I am negotiating using THEIR original terms - NOT making myself liable for aborts by pulling out.

And there is a chance buyer would "agree" and I remain in current place with a somewhat lower purchase price on it, but the MASSIVE saving of not having to rent, and the time to find onward purchase (not to mention the other saving which is my essential mental equilibrium).

Buyer has already invested. His penalty recognised the chance I may not meet his timeline. I will be transparent, professional, forthright and clear - I would now like to take him up on this penalty (which is in fact an offer, not a penalty in my new way of thinking - because it enables me theoretically to retain buyer and gain TIME - which is what I need).

How does that sound?

@MerryAnton - I am sorry to hear of your 4 year mistake due to time constraints. Happy to hear the tale if you care to share.

I do appreciate also this thread has entirely shifted from a Building Reg issue.

And also, that place I was considering buying had a 86 year lease - which would have been on me to extend adding another c.20/ 30k into mortgage, if manageable for me, and one of the other bedrooms was teeny tiny and really part of a utility space (single bed and not much more). Not expecting a palace by any means on my budget, but actually, the lease, the compromise on not one but two bedrooms - the niggles are too many and clearly time was the pressure point.

If this causes buyer to pull out - then that's life.

If I don't meet the onward timeline - then that's life.

Fact is, I will be in negotiating terrain. Not pulling out terrain. It's the obvious answer that was under my nose.

That sounds incredibly practical, pragmatic and sensible, OP - with the update RE the cost and suitability of a rental then absolutely I'd discount that option.

Renting is not a viable option, and it seems neither is continuing to purchase this house which was chosen under time pressure.

Exactly as you say, you may incur the penalty from your buyer but actually this works in your favour - the penalty is the better option here and gives you space and freedom to find another onward purchase, and they will likely be even more invested in buying as they won't be financially impacted.

If they do pull out, that's their choice - and you're in no worse position. I do think the worst thing would be to continue buying a house you're not happy with.

I really hope you can find a wonderful home and your buyer stays with you, you sound like an incredibly resilient person in a very stressful situation!

My regretful purchase just took awhile to sell, as per my initial doubts, and I never felt happy there, but it made 'sense' under practical terms so I continued - never again!

Pleased to hear you did eventually get out of that @MerryAnton - expensive and difficult lesson to learn.

And just to make clear, the “penalty” is simply a hit on the final offer price - eg just means I have to work with a slightly different set of figures, and chip into deposit a little - not not actually a sum I have to cough up. And so long as I can work with that new figure - buyer gets more for less albeit a later move date, and I gain precious time and the ability to find onward purchase from a comfortable spot. :)

Haven't read whole post but both our loft conversion and knock through on our kitchen have same blurb on the cert.

Loft conversion one just states it's for loft conversion with rear dormer - nothing about it being a bedroom 🤷‍♀️