Valuer found “structural movement which may be progressive’!

[SpeciesOfSpaces]

So, we’ve had an offer accepted on a Victorian terraced house we really love. However, the valuer for the mortgage company found some cracking which may be progressive. It turns out the vendors had a structural engineer’s survey done because of visible cracking in the internal walls. We’ve now seen the survey (though they kept it well hidden until now!) and the conclusion was that the issue is ‘longstanding and not progressive’. The owners clearly plastered over the cracks, but obviously left some which the valuer picked up. We can get the survey updated and the mortgage company will probably accept it or else get a new one done.

But what now? We love the house and there’s nothing else in our price bracket like it — and we really need to move for space. Can we reasonably negotiate the price down? We offered a bit more than we wanted (best and final). It was a sellers market, but perhaps the dynamics have changed in this case? Stamp duty holiday is ending and I’ve read that, if we pull out, EAs have to declare things like this to the next buyer which would affect the price they could get. (Or do they if it’s just cracks in an old house?). Insurance also likely to be a problem (huge premium) from what I’ve read.

Do we have room for price negotiation and if so, how much? House is around 400k... Would love some advice as FTB and completely emotionally involved with it all...

Why are you even considering buying a Victorian terrace with only a valuation survey? Your vendors sound shifty. Get this checked out properly!

Tricky one. Do you have comeback with structural engineer if the cracking turns out to be progressive? Will their insurance pay out if it turns out their assessment is wrong and stabilising work is needed? I imagine that would be wriggled out of somehow.

Can you get an idea of insurance costs already? Does the existing insurer know about the issues and can you continue being insured by same company perhaps to avoid the problems that may come with a change of insurer where they maybe start arguing about when issue started and who is liable for costs if an issue does develop?

I've been in worst case scenario with this where cracking was progressive due to subsidence, building was unstable and then was demolished, so I probably wouldn't touch with a bargepole myself. But there are plenty of Victorian buildings with cracks and many people living in them without issue.

I guess it's worth a shot negotiating down with sellers.

A valuation survey is quite superficial and will put in phrases to qualify everything. So it sounds as if the surveyor noted some cracks and put in a disclaimer because they aren’t able to say for sure whether they are progressive or not.

This is when you commission your own structural engineers report.

If it comes back saying that the cracks are not progressive, fine.

There shouldn’t be any insurance implications.

If there is a serious issue you will need to walk away.

In England as far as I am aware, it is ‘buyer beware’ and the EA doesn’t have to declare it. In any case, if the structural survey survey says it’s fine, it is, if not it’s a dead duck unless you can undertake whatever measures would rectify the issue (underpinning, tie bars, beams, whatever is needed) in which case yes, a huge reduction would be in order.

You need your own engineers report. The one they have is for them to rely on only, so if it turns out the engineer is wrong you have no come back. If you instruct and pay for one then you can claim if he/she is wrong.

Thanks so much for the wise words (blimey, suggestions, that sounds scary!). The engineer they used is willing to redo it and he is super-qualified and local, so we’ll probably go with him. The existing survey says longstanding and not progressive and there are no exterior cracks, so I’m assuming that would be the conclusion.

If not we’ll pull out. But all being well, would insurance still be an issue? Would we still have room to negotiate on price do you think?

Good point, Nothing: I think we’ll get a different engineer just in case! Shouldn’t take much longer. Would be good to be prepared if they come to the same conclusion, though...

We bought a house which has cracks. We had a structural survey and the conclusion was they are historic.

However, we've been here five years now and the cracks are getting bigger! I really think there's a problem but the surveyor costs £500 so we haven't had one out again.

It really stresses me out and I sometimes wish we hadn't done it.

You can use the same surveyor as the owners, the point is that it is a report commissioned by you, and the responsibility/ liability for the content of the report is to you, not the current owners.

Thanks, Junction. Pretty sure it will be ok, if a bit scary, but the house is otherwise perfect. I’m thinking of trying to negotiate the price down by 5-10k, maybe citing insurance issues and general concerns ( as garlic says, it’s still a worry whatever happens!). The price was a little high for us in the end and the agent would have to declare the reason we pulled out, if we were to do so, which could put off future buyers. At least I think they’d be obliged to declare... they didn’t tell us!

You will struggle to get a mortgage if found to be ongoing movement. We had similar years ago which after months and months was found to be caused by trees root affecting drains causing cracking, the owners were able to claim on their insurance and then my lenders would release funds - but it took ages to sort out and was a real ball ache.

Why would you need / want to negotiate the price down if the movement is historic and non progressive?

They wouldn't be obliged to tell people you pulled out.
Personally I would walk away. The house is not what you thought. There is no point in buying a house, for me, that already has issues. You will have to declare it all again when you try to sell.
It's a Victorian terrace, another one will be along soon. Act in haste, repent at leisure!

Firstly you need to conduct your own structural survey.

Anyway I wouldn’t be proceeding with this purchase.

Would we have to declare it if the cracking is longstanding and non-progressive when we come to sell?

Personally, I wouldn't use the same surveyor. I'd get someone completely independent.

You really don't want to buy a house with prestige structural movement.

Your post is a bit confused, you say both it may be progressive and it’s not progressive. You need to find out which it is.

As everyone else has said, you need to get your own structural survey done. Don't use the same person they did, find someone else - nothing personal, just in order to get an independent viewpoint.

Once you've got that report, then you can start thinking about negotiating on price if needed. A good surveyor won't just click send on the report and then wash their hands of you, you'll be able to discuss the findings with them and what might be appropriate in terms of price negotiation.

Personally I would (and have) walked away from a house with structural issues, but I have quite a low tolerance level for this kind of thing! Some people might be happy to proceed with a proce reduction. Just make sure you consider not only how it might affect you, but also your prospects of selling it on as and when the time comes.

If this has come up as part of the valuation survey what has the lender concluded? If they are still going to lend it suggests no concern about resale.

That said, I would always get a survey on any house but particularly one this age. I live in a Victorian terrace and most of the houses locally have cracks and wear and tear due to age, but getting a completely independent view is crucial.

Good luck!

Structural engineers are completely independent.

I have never heard of an EA having to declare why previous buyers pulled out.

What insurance issues would there be if it turns out that there is no ongoing movement?

When did the vendors have their structural survey done? When they bought?

Ask what they pay for buildings insurance and if there are any specific exclusions.

You should pay a structural engineer to perform your own survey, & off the back of that report, you can legitimately negotiate with the vendor.

Might be worth getting your own survey just relating to the cracking. That's what we did, nothing to worry about in the end. It didn't get any worse and we sold without a problem.

have you not had a survey at all, just the valuation? I'm amazed the valuer found anything as they usually do drive by surveys.

Get a proper survey, and then a structural if needed.

Just because you CAN afford it doesn't mean you should buy it, caveat emptor and all that.

Right: we’ll get our own structural survey and take it or leave it based on that. If it’s fine, it’s fine, and if not, we don’t want to have any issues selling it on. Thanks for the advice!

Yes! I think you are right. I think you should get a full structural survey before you buy....you mention that it's a good price, but it sounds expensive to me if its moving and cracking. Finding building insurance might be tricky if you disclose the issue, but not disclosing it will make your insurance void. Get the survey, and call a few insurers for a bit of guidance. If your survey comes up ok, then go for it...but make an informed choice...using all available information. You dont want to be lumbered with a property that you cant sell in future. I hate to be doom and gloom about things like this, (because properties tend to need work doing to them) but please please protect yourself by paying for a full survey. Tell the surveyor about the cracks, show them the previous survey and make sure you have a budget to do any work asap. I wish you all the best.

Sil had this. She had to have it pinned. It was expensive. But sold ok afterwards. These houses can't last forever, they are expensive to maintain. See if you can get buildings insurance for it, for a start. If they won't insure it, or the premium is ridiculous, there's your answer.