Side return on SW London garden flat or not (with floor plans)

[MrsGethinJones]

Ive recently moved into a flat and the plan was to build out into side return eventually. I didnt notice how dark the kitchen was when viewing the property and i find the dark is really affecting my mood (it was was winter and the lights were on!)

Im wondering if I should go ahead with the side return plans now if i can organise this cost effectively. Any ideas how i could configure the floor plan?

Id definately like to keep the livingroom in the front of the house and move the kitchen diner to the back. In an ideal world i will have a corner somewhere for a yoga mat and desk, and possibly a large cupboard area for all my kitchen appliances and pots and pans

I realise obtaining planning permission might be a bit if a struggle although the flat is share of freehold

Makes sense to move the kitchen to the back. Although the bedrooms won't get much light, some side light is better than just a roof light, so personally I wouldn't do the side return as I think it would be off-putting. Everyone is different though, so you should do whatever suits you.

Problem with having the kitchen diner at the back is that you'd need to partition off a hallway in the middle bit which would be the bedroom which would only have side return roof lights as the window.

Personally if you're going to do it have living room as main bedroom, second bed as is, then bring bathroom down (maybe add utility?) then have the entire back including side return, so from where kitchen is now all the way back, as a massive open plan kitchen/dining/living.

I agree, it doesn't really work keeping the living room at the front.

I have a friend with a house with a similar configuration- she has left a courtyard open where the doors to bedroom 2 go out and then built across the back.

The current kitchen would become a bit of a hall/ walkway but I am sure you could fit a bathroom in there too. Then the back could be a big open plan kitchen/ diner/ living area.

Could the basement be used for anything? Utility?

I really love the loving room at the front! I e always wanted a room with shutters and alcove shelves so id prefer not to turn that into a bedroom. Im also not a fan of only having an open plan living area.

Mmm.. perhaps the idea of the side return wont work in this flat. I dont know if there is another way to bring the kitchen to the back of the house?

Living not loving - chance would be a fine thing 😂!!

Here you go, you could have a courtyard for the bedrooms? Could also then have a window in the new bathroom space.

I'm no architect and I'm sure it's a very expensive way of doing it and I have no idea how the bathroom plumbing works but maybe it would be ok as it's in the old kitchen space. But it does keep your living room at the front!

This is amazing @beggingforsleep!! How did you do this?

Yes, this definitely looks as if it could be an option, thank you for doing this

Ah, glad I cracked the brief

It's not too dissimilar to something we were going to do a few years ago but a baby came along instead.

I also spend far too much time thinking about home improvements!

The bay window wall in the kitchen is structural. You will need permission from the leaseholders to demolish it. I take it someone else is living above you, this will cause a lot of disruption and require extensive propping whilst the wall is taken down. You would be liable for any damage, especially when the building settles and cracks form. Is there someone to the side of you, as you will need to dig foundations that extend past the thickness of the wall. You could build a lean-to that is totally independent if you just want a desk and a yoga mat, but not knock through (timber frame). You’d also need the electrical and plumbing plans as they may be connected to the above and will require rerouting which you would need to fund. I don’t think removing the kitchen wall to extend would be viable, and if you managed to find a way around it, the cost would be prohibitive - I can’t see the leaseholder agreeing to it. Extending out the back may be a possibility, i.e. where there is nobody above you, but leaseholders are usually reluctant to agree to this as well.

We had very similar layout (side return on he other side) and turned it into a 3 bedroom flat - living room at the front, leading into semi open plan kitchen diner, the corridor along the existing internal wall and bathroom, and three bedrooms and door to the garden at the rear.

@Grognonne thank you, this is good feedback. Looking at plans on rightmove I was wondering why no other neighbours have extended in the way I had imagined, especially as we have 10m long gardens which are large for the area. Perhaps its all of the structural effort. The window sounds as if it could be a nightmare.

Wish id given this a bit morw thought before buying, the flat looked as if it had potential however that was cosmetically.

@itsnotgolf thats a really efficient use of space, unfortunately im short of a few windows for this layout i think

We took down a structural wall when we did the work on ours and installed RSJ. The work obviously wasn't cheap but added a lot of money to the value of the flat!

Our bedrooms also had sky windows to add more light

Yes, there are no practical problems taking down a structural wall, it’s just the permissions required when you don’t own the whole property, the flat is occupied upstairs, and there are neighbours to the side who will require party wall agreements. It’s not a huge amount of extra space for all those costs.

Hi - yes there are 2 flats above me (the property was originally a large house) so i would probably need to pay for the party wall advice for all parties.

What a shame, the kitchen is quite dark, perhaps its not the forever home that i had envisaged 😬

how high are the other buildings around? Does the side-return space ever get direct sunlight?

if you prop mirrors on the wall opposite the kitchen, can that bring some more light in? they can look quite good with plants in between in a shabby-chic way.

@Grognonne

The bay window wall in the kitchen is structural. You will need permission from the leaseholders to demolish it. I take it someone else is living above you, this will cause a lot of disruption and require extensive propping whilst the wall is taken down. You would be liable for any damage, especially when the building settles and cracks form. Is there someone to the side of you, as you will need to dig foundations that extend past the thickness of the wall. You could build a lean-to that is totally independent if you just want a desk and a yoga mat, but not knock through (timber frame). You’d also need the electrical and plumbing plans as they may be connected to the above and will require rerouting which you would need to fund. I don’t think removing the kitchen wall to extend would be viable, and if you managed to find a way around it, the cost would be prohibitive - I can’t see the leaseholder agreeing to it. Extending out the back may be a possibility, i.e. where there is nobody above you, but leaseholders are usually reluctant to agree to this as well.

I don't understand the negativity here- side returns and Fiat extensions aren't uncommon. Structural works don't have to be hugely costly.

I think @beggingforsleep has the winning answer here! How lovely as well to have courtyard bedrooms; I can imagine that move alone would add enough value to cover a fair whack of the extra structural building work costs.

PS could you turn that basement into a galley-style utility room??

@NeilBuchananisBanksy - no negativity from me, I love them, used to do about 10 a year! Just offering some considerations based on previous experience.

I took down a structural wall in the middle of a basement flat with four flats above. I didn't need party wall agreements, I just wrote to each flat. The management company said I really only needed permission from the head of the leaseholder group (we all had share of freehold and one of the flat owners acted on behalf of the rest in dealing with managing agents etc).
It was fairly straightforward.
I had similar layout but no garden at the back. As I shared, it was very convenient having bedrooms far apart and two separate reception areas.

Party wall agreements aren’t needed for flats above. You would only need them if you had side neighbours like the OP does and wanted to excavate within 1m of the boundary line. Internal structural walls are rarely an issue, but this isn’t what the OP is proposing.