Neighbour worried about crack in party wall

[MGMidget]

Our neighbour has contacted us concerning a crack in the party wall. They say it has spread down more than one storey of the house (nearly top to bottom). I have noticed a bit of a hairline crack on our side recently but it doesnt travel as far as they s@yit does on their side. They are asking to send an engineer to look at it from our side. I am slightly worried about what to expect from this. On our side it is a non issue at the moment. Just a fine crack in the plaster a Victorian house which can be filled and decorated. However, if there is some cracking on both sides is this something of concern? It can’t be more than 1mm wide at worse on our side.

I am dreading it escalating into a subsidence claim and/or party wall dispute. Wehad a loft conversion done about 15 years ago. Could they claim the loft conversion has caused it?

To me this is just normal in a Victorian house but I could see party wall surveyors rubbing their hands in glee at a nice lucrative “dispute”. Should I be worried? Is it sensible to let an engineer they have contacted look at it? They are suggesting he’s a neighbour doing a favour by taking a look and I dont want to appear obstructive or trying to hide something. However, we arent concerned and I am worried I am opening the door to something expensive that doesnt need doing!

We also want to sell shortly so this is happening at a bad time.

What would you do?

I'd ask to see photos from their side in the first instance, to see the extent of the issue, and I would be a bit concerned that it was appearing on both sides of the wall. But I probably would agree to have someone round to check it out as you want to know the full picture and take steps early if there is an issue.

I would have hoped that if your loft conversion was carried out with relevant consents and according to building regs there wouldn't be an issue. 15 years is a long time for a problem to manifest after that.

Any trees in the area or unusual conditions in the soil - drier, wetter? No drainage problems eg collapsed drains?

Loft conversion had the relevant consents, building control approval etc.

The crack is in the middle of the house. There is a tree in front of their house but it gets pruned by the council regularly. No sign of a problem in the external walls.

There are small trees in both our rear gardens.

If trees were the problem would you expect to see signs in the external walls near the trees? We don’t have that.

There are signs of old historic movement (eg a bit of a slope on part of top floor) but could have been war damage from bombs nearby. It has stayed the same since we moved in nearly 20 years ago!

Photos with ruler in so you can see the scale of the problem? Not because you disbelieve them just want to compare to your side to see if they are in exactly the same place as your cracks?

Why assume it will lead to a dispute? Surely it is both your interests to find out if this is a structural issue that needs addressing.
I'd get a structural engineer around- not a 'friendly neighbour' but some one you both pay for advise. Ignoring it is not going to make it go away, and if you go on Which? recommended surveyor you should get one who will not 'rub their hands with glee', but give you a professional opinion as to what needs doing (if anything).

I can’t see any problem with allowing the structural engineer to have a look.

If there is a problem, it wants sorting. If there is a problem it wants discovering and sorting now and not when you are in the middle of selling and their survey gets done,

A professional structural engineer will not be ‘rubbing their hands in glee’, they would have nothing to gain. They report in the facts.

We've had a similar issue. What will probably happen is a structural engineer will take a look to see if there's an issue (for a fee) and, if so, insurance companies will get involved. They'll send a loss adjustor and will probably then want to monitor it for a year to check if it's actually growing. If it's not, they'll repair. If it's moving then it's clearly more substantial.

It's not a massive payday for the structural engineer as, if it is subsidence, it's an insurance matter, so there's no real reason for them to exaggerate. After 15 years I'd say it'd be hard for them to establish your loft conversion has anything to do with it.

If it goes into party wall agreement stage, you probably won't end in dispute because they (and you) have a legal right to repair it. Each side is also liable for a contribution to costs.

My advice would be to keep talking to the neighbour to keep an eye on costs and try to come up with a shared (sensible) plan.

We've been watching a lot of Help! My House is Falling Down with Sarah Beeney lately. The last episode we watched had a similar issue and they basically said if a crack is appearing on both sides of the wall and is growing, don't muck about and get someone to look at it.

You are right OP, cracks are a feature of old houses, and hopefully a structural surveyor will say ‘meh, nothing to see here’.

I would only involve your insurers (and stress this to your neighbours) if a structural survey is pretty clear that there seems to be a problem. Because insurance companies will put up your premium for even having investigated potential subsidence, and you will have to declare that the property had been investigated for subsidence. Where was a suitably qualified friendly neighbours opinion will not need to be declared.

Thanks, for your thoughts on this everyone. The monitoring worries me as we want to sell. I am not sure we could with that going on. My understanding is Victorian houses move because they have shallow foundations and lime plaster which is a bit more flexible. Over time it crumbles and small cracks are normal.

Its a vertical crack which neighbour says goes a long way down in their house. I am just wary that the neighbour is organising all this herself and the other “friendly neighbour” hasnt made any effort to respond to my contact with them. It feels like the investigation is going one way whereas we suspected a few years ago that our neighbour had removed one or more chimney breasts without permission but I dont get to see in their house.

I am thinking the best approach might be to ask for his contact details and say I will speak to him directly rather than have my neighbour organising all the liason and access to our house. Does that sound reasonable? I dont want her going to the insurance company in a panic because she doesnt know the cause and thinks we are hiding something but on the other hand I dont want a situation where she is trying to pin the cause of her crack on us to get us to pay for replastering/redecorating when I know nothing of the circumstances inside her house!

Will they not send photos?

Yes I think it would be reasonable to request to speak to the surveyor directly yourself to hear what they have seen in your neighbours property and what they intend to look at when visiting yours. If you don't want them scouting around the whole place you could establish that they're just there to look at the crack.

But ultimately you do want to get this addressed...I imagine by now you'd have to declare these communications anyway during the selling process so I'd imagine that ship has sailed.

Now you're in the process of addressing it, which is better than ignoring and keeping fingers crossed (I was an owner of a flat and the entire block was demolished due to escalating subsidence, I should know! That was extreme however and multiple very deep cracks appeared throughout the building)

If you're concerned about bias then maybe think of instructing your own surveyor?

Don’t do it.

Sorry but if you are selling then this is absolutely not the right time to get into this. It is a potentially massive headache you can do without.

Get decorators in pronto! Fill the crack and decorate. Tell you neighbour lightly that it was all resolved with polyfiller, how about that! And move on.

@PersonaNonGarter

Don’t do it.

Sorry but if you are selling then this is absolutely not the right time to get into this. It is a potentially massive headache you can do without.

Get decorators in pronto! Fill the crack and decorate. Tell you neighbour lightly that it was all resolved with polyfiller, how about that! And move on.

This is terrible advice! I assume the neighbour has proof that they contacted the OP about this and if it does turn out to be a problem later on, and the OP hasn't declared this to a potential buyer they could be leaving themselves open to legal action.

OP if there is a mirroring crack both sides of the wall you need to get it checked out at least - it may be nothing, but get your own advice from a professional if you don't trust the friendly neighbour.

We've had crack apprear after conversion - had a few people come in and check, even had someone use a camera scope to check in the roof cavity to check the RSJ hadn't moved - all jist said it was normal settlement
Get an expert in though, cracking both sides isn't something to ignore

Thanks. On our side I would just fill with pollyfiller. Its no different to numerous fine cracks around the house that would be filled and decorated! I would have a nervous breakdown by now if I paid that much attention to each fine crack. Still I havent seen their side. I think I will try and speak to the guy myself first to find out what he thinks of what he has seen before inviting him in. I really dont think its an issue at this stage and I suspect getting drawn in is making it look like I do. I would keep an eye on it of course!

Don’t get drawn in. Seriously, stay out of it.

A neighbouring claim for subsidence will surely get flagged in your searches anyway?
And would you buy a terraced house if the adjoining one next door had serious structural problems? I think you have no choice but to roll with this for the being; now you know, and the neighbour knows you know, there is no hiding it when you sell.

So I think you should let a surveyor/engineer come in to look, as you're being obstructive if you don't. But that doesn't mean you have to play an active part in paying them etc - just say to your neighbour that you have no concerns from your side but you're happy to let their surveyor have a look from yours if they feel it would be helpful.

Have you or your neighbour taken out any internal walls? There is a slight crack in our party wall underneath the beam which was installed donkeys years ago and perhaps isn't quite big enough to meet current building regs. I've had a surveyor look at it and he wasn't massively concerned.