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Air Source Heat pump, anyone had one?

40 replies

BigDecisionsLittleTime · 08/04/2021 21:36

Our ancient oil fired boiler needs replacing. Don't really want to continue with oil.

From research seems like this is the best option, also added bonus of RHI scheme if we do it before March next year (I think!)

I've read so much about it all and I'm still quite confused. I'm getting cavity walls and loft insulated now before getting measured up for a heat pump, understand some radiators might need increasing. Appreciate it works best with wet underfloor heating, but we can't afford that just now. Read that mistubishi made pumps are good.

Does anyone have experience of this, any dos and don'ts? Is hot water still good? Does your electricity bill sky rocket?

Thank you

OP posts:
Andthenanothercupoftea · 09/04/2021 06:56

I don't have experience of this, but am looking into it vaguely myself. My main concern is noise!
Have you thought about combining with getting solar panels fitted to offset the increased electric use?

liverpool1981 · 09/04/2021 11:05

Following. I am very interested to see replies x

Shedbuilder · 09/04/2021 12:06

Yes, I've had a Mitsubishi Ecodan for the last 8 years and have been happy with it. We've had no issue with it at all, but we do have it serviced (as per the RHI contract) each year. Friends have a Mitsubishi that's been working for 11 years now. You'll need to have a hot water tank installed if you haven't already got one. Your installer will talk to you about your household, how many baths you have each day and so on, and size it to suit.

Because it's a low temperature form of heating you may need to have some of your radiators replaced with something larger, or doubles where you currently have singles, to ensure that the rooms are warm enough.

You need to have a well-insulated house to enable the ASHP to work efficiently. You can't use one to heat a house that's like a sieve, heat wise. So having the cavity wall and loft insulation done, and replacing any single glazing with double glazing will all help. I think you need an EPC of at least D to qualify for the RHI, which pays back a chunk of money every year for 7 years. The amount depends on various factors. Our repayment almost completely paid for our system, so it's worked out eventually costing no more than replacing our old boiler would have cost.

We find our ASHP is relatively cheap to run, but then we also have PV which can help support it (and which makes us money to offset against the electricity bills). You have to adjust to using it because it's not quite the same as having a standard boiler. It takes longer for the house to heat up because the radiators don't get so hot. At the moment our heating comes on at 6am and turns off at 9am, then comes on again at 5pm for four hours. We can turn it on and off remotely via an app. We have the thermostat set at 20 degrees. We also have a wood burner for the worst of winter. When it's very cold the ASHP has to work harder to keep the house warm and so we put a few logs on to make the place extra cosy and take the strain off the ASHP.

If you're someone who wants your home perpetually at 23 degrees it'll obviously cost you more than running it on a lean basis. We try to be green, which is why we have an ASHP, and we're the kind of people who put on another jumper rather than turn the thermostat up.

We have friends who recently had the Rolls Royce of ASHPs, a Stiebel-Eltron, fitted and that's amazingly efficient and worth investigating if you are techie enough to understand the stats. Far more so than a Mitsi, although it costs more to start with. We'll have one when eventually the Mitsi dies.

You can find suppliers and installers on the MCS site:

mcscertified.com/find-an-installer/

All installers have to be a part of the MCS scheme, which is highly-regulated. Beware of anyone who isn't MCS certified because you won't be able to claim the RHI. I would always look for a local company that's been in business for a few years. Maintaining and servicing ASHPs is quite specialist work that your average gas/ oil heating engineer can't do. I know from experience that if you use one of the large apparently national companies, they'll just phone around looking for someone prepared to install your ASHP as cheaply as possible — with issues with back-up if something goes wrong. We know people in Dorset who had two engineers from Scotland drive down and stay in a B+B while they fitted their ASHP. When it wasn't working properly they struggled for months to find someone to sort the problem out.

Our ASHP was installed by a local company who will send someone out within 24-48 hours if there are problems. We haven't had any problems, but like all equipment they do occur.

You have to have your ASHP installed before next March to get the RHI (Renewable Heating Incentive) payments, so probably best to get onto the case now. There's be a major rush towards the end of the year, I expect.

RichmondMumof2 · 09/04/2021 14:33

Thank you @Shedbuilder

DappledThings · 09/04/2021 21:11

My parents have one. I have no idea what brand but it seems OK. House always seems warm and I don't think their bills are insane.

Hot water is fine too. The unit itself takes up an entire cupboard that runs the length of one wall of the spare room. Not noisy though, I've slept in that room plenty of times as have the DC and I've never heard it.

A pain to get fixed if it does go wrong, needs a specialist who can be hard to get hold of.

womaninatightspot · 09/04/2021 21:14

I was going to get one but apparently my private water supply isn't strong enough to power it.

Shedbuilder · 09/04/2021 22:52

@womaninatightspot

I was going to get one but apparently my private water supply isn't strong enough to power it.
Just to clarify in case your post causes confusion, air source heat pumps aren't powered by water. I have no idea why you were told that your private water supply (borehole?) isn't suitable. Is it very low pressure? If so a pump should easily sort that out. If you really want an ASHP try using the MCS site to find a registered installer in your area.
NewHouseNewMe · 09/04/2021 22:56

I looked into it for an older house. It was not recommended because it would be unlikely that we'd get to the necessary EPC rating of B for max efficiency.
If you live in a gas area, maybe consider one of the dual ones if you live in an older house.
I agree with a PP who said to consider solar panels in conjunction with the ASHP.

iamverytired · 09/04/2021 23:06

Ours broke after 5 years (new build, probably wasn't installed correctly), very expensive to replace (5k+).

PresentingPercy · 09/04/2021 23:32

We have 2 x Mitsubishi’s. Big house! Plus a small one for the pool.

You hot water won’t be as hot but it just takes less cold to make it useable. We have not had any problems and we were oil. We have awful access for oil tanker so the change worked for us.

They do emit a lot of cold air. They take up space. They are best with a cell to obtain your own electricity but we don’t have a sunny roof for one nearby! They are not very noisy.

We always have a warm house. I have a large orangery kitchen with ufh and it’s warm.

Shedbuilder · 09/04/2021 23:58

@DappledThings

My parents have one. I have no idea what brand but it seems OK. House always seems warm and I don't think their bills are insane.

Hot water is fine too. The unit itself takes up an entire cupboard that runs the length of one wall of the spare room. Not noisy though, I've slept in that room plenty of times as have the DC and I've never heard it.

A pain to get fixed if it does go wrong, needs a specialist who can be hard to get hold of.

Again, just to clarify because this is a new technology to many people and it's easy to get the wrong end of the stick, the ASHP unit sits outside the house, in the garden, where they can get the airflow required. They're maybe 1.3-1.5 m wide, about 1m high and about .4m deep.

I presume what DappledThings parents have in their spare room is the hot water cylinder. Why it takes up a whole wall of the spare room I don't know. Our hot water cylinder is about a metre wide and is built into a larder-style kitchen unit in our utility room.

Andthenanothercupoftea · 10/04/2021 06:33

Oh this is very useful! How noisy do you find them?

Is a budget of £15k enough for one plus some solar panels do you think?

The house we're looking at definitely needs work on the insulation front. EPC rating of E. Many of the suggestions are linked to energy supply but improved roof insulation and boiler insulation which would hopefully help. Then quick wins like installed low energy bulbs. It also recommends a new boiler which I guess I'd need anyway?

PresentingPercy · 10/04/2021 08:48

Ours has been installed for a while and I would not know costs now. You have the pumps outside and the hot water tank inside. Ours is in the loft. Our units are quite tall. Around head height. Side by side in the garden at the back of the garage.

Shedbuilder · 10/04/2021 09:54

@Andthenanothercupoftea

Oh this is very useful! How noisy do you find them?

Is a budget of £15k enough for one plus some solar panels do you think?

The house we're looking at definitely needs work on the insulation front. EPC rating of E. Many of the suggestions are linked to energy supply but improved roof insulation and boiler insulation which would hopefully help. Then quick wins like installed low energy bulbs. It also recommends a new boiler which I guess I'd need anyway?

A friend of ours has just had an ASHP installed, having monitored ours for a few years. I think she paid about £9000 for her ASHP and hot water cylinder fully-fitted and expects to get around £7000 back over 7 years via the RHI. I think because it's renewable energy there's only 5% VAT.

Unlike boilers, ASHPs have to be accurately sized if they're to run at an optimum level so price will depend on the size of your property, heat loss (dependent on insulation, type of construction etc) and your lifestyle. If you live with a disabled or elderly person who needs extra heat, or there are six of you in the house all wanting a hot bath every evening, you'll pay more.

For 16 panels of PV the going rate on a bog-standard tiled roof is about £5000. If there are complications — east-west split, slates or very old, fragile tiles the cost goes up. You may need to allow £500+ for scaffolding on top.

Remember that the PV panels generate power only during daylight hours, not at night when generally you need more heat from the ASHP. The same goes for the winter, when you generate less electricity just at the time you need it most for heating. But you can use the electricity produced by the panels for free in the home or export it to the grid, for which you're paid.

On cold frosty mornings when it's very quiet outdoors and the ASHP is working really hard to defrost and warm a cold house, I can sometimes hear it like a hairdryer being used in a bedroom a few doors along. If you're standing next to it you can definitely hear it, but a good installer will position it so that you hear as little as possible. The Stebiel-Eltrons are quieter but you'll pay 30% more. Installers will tell you that ASHPs. should last for 10 years but I'm seeing more and more older ones around. (Once you've got one you tend to spot them everywhere you go).

They do need to be properly installed by someone who's been trained by the manufacturers. You can ask the installer whether they've had manufacturer training or contact Mitsubishi and ask them for your nearest qualified installer if you know you want a Mitsi.

The disasters I've heard about, which gave ASHPs a bad name, tend to involve over-confident, untrained plumber-types who assume there's nothing much to fitting them. There is. The guy who fitted ours is a real heat pump nerd who trains other installers. He services our ASHP each year and tells horror stories of some of the installations he sees. In my opinion this is one area where it's worth paying a little more for someone who really knows what they're doing.

Andthenanothercupoftea · 10/04/2021 10:05

Thank you, that's really useful! I'll definitely look into it as soon as we've moved to try and get it fitted before the RHI ends.

There's two of us (three in August). I like a bath but probably only once a week max, otherwise it's showers.

Shedbuilder · 10/04/2021 10:25

I know it sounds a bit weird, but baths use so much more hot water than showers (unless you're the kind who's an hour in the shower). With a combi boiler you can have as many baths as you want because the water is heated up as it comes through the boiler. With a water tank you tend to run out after the second or third bath in a row.

DappledThings · 10/04/2021 10:47

I presume what DappledThings parents have in their spare room is the hot water cylinder. Why it takes up a whole wall of the spare room I don't know.
Not sure exactly what they have but everything to do with heating and hot water is in that cupboard. Lots of dials and things. It's the airing cupboard as well so part of the space is taken up with shelves.

PresentingPercy · 10/04/2021 11:14

I’m wrong. Hot water cylinder in airing cupboard. Settings in a cupboard in the kitchen.

BigDecisionsLittleTime · 10/04/2021 19:27

Thanks for all the replies, all very interesting and useful.

@Shedbuilder you have confirmed a lot of what I had read or been advised already so that's nice. Glad I am on the right track first getting my house as well insulated as possible with loft insulation and cavity walls, it is already double glazed throughout. Next it'll be a new EPC as I understand that needs to be less than 2 yrs old to claim the RHI.

I too thought a local fitter was the best bet. Igloo had given me a price but it was so overwhelming and a bit of a hard sell that they scared me off TBH! I also thought they'd just get subcontractors in and there would be little follow through. I will stick with the local firm I have found who have so far given me much the same advice as you.
And I think they carry out the annual servicing which sounds important.

Thanks again!

OP posts:
Shedbuilder · 11/04/2021 09:56

Just don't leave it too late before you order your heat pump. There have been major issues with the supply of Mitsubishis: I know this because we had a service in January and our excellent engineer told us that he had customers who'd been waiting for a couple of months for their heat pumps to reach the UK. He's had three due to be delivered that week and had heard from Mitsubishi that they wouldn't be available. Presumably Covid and Brexit are making things more difficult — and that was before the Suez Canal hold-up. Also, as we can see here, more and more people are getting their heads around the idea of ASHPs and demand is growing at a time when all building supplies are sporadic.

Before you have one fitted you need your EPC done and a good installer will carry out their own survey and need to discuss various things with you. I can remember the massive rush to get PV installed before FiTs were reduced back in 2011 so I'd suggest you start contacting installers now and aim to get the ASHP in by this autumn. Otherwise it could all start to get very hairy, prices will go up accordingly and some people will miss out.

bluebeach · 17/04/2021 07:32

Hello. We had an eco Dan fitted last week. It’s working well, house feels warm and plenty of hot water. HOWEVER the unit inside the house in the airing cupboard seems quite noisy. A low hum not unlike our old boiler but seemingly louder. As well as this our radiators always sound as though water is rushing through them. This isn’t an issue in the day but it is stopping me sleeping at night. We have set the unit to not heat our house or water at all at night but it still always kicks in around midnight and the unit in the cupboard starts humming and the radiators start wooshing (but stay cold).
Admittedly I like proper quiet when I sleep, I’m slightly unsure whether the noise I can hear is acceptable or not but either way it is stopping me sleeping so I invariably shut the whole system down at about 2am so I can sleep. I know this won’t be economical but I feel like I have a new baby keeping me awake again!
Does anyone have similar problems, or are your internal units quiet? We went with the eco Dan specifically because the outside unit it quite... which it is... I just never thought we’d have noise issues from the inside unit.

Upupupintheair · 17/04/2021 07:46

Another vote for a Mitsubishi ASHP.

We had one put in to our 1930s house in 2019 following a complete renovation/extension project. Our house is lovely and toasty now! Previously it was electric heating as there is no mains gas to our property.

Considerations:

  • you need to find some suitable for the pump to go outside, it’s not noisy but does blow out cold air
  • you need to insulate to the maximum to get the benefit. We put in cavity wall insulation, loft insulation and floor as well as upgrading all windows to double glazed.
  • works best with wet UFH. We have this downstairs and then oversized radiators upstairs.
  • you need space for a large water tank (we have 3 bathrooms so need quite a bit of water storage) our tank is in the loft, approved by the structural engineer so it doesn’t take up any floor space in the house itself.
  • like a PP we also have a log burner for really cold days.

I think it cost us about £10-£12k in total for the pump, fitting and radiators and underfloor heating fitting. We get £7k back through the RHI it is lovely having that payment drop into our bank account every quarter!

Our electric bills are reasonable (we are electric only and no gas so they always will be on the higher side compared to a normal house).

I hope this has helped! Let me know if you have any questions.

bluebeach · 17/04/2021 10:01

@Upupupintheair can I ask if your system runs at night? I know your tank is in the loft so probably noise from that isn’t an issue but does it kick in at night making the bedroom radiators come on?
I do see that you had new larger radiators installed upstairs. We are also a 1930s house but the installer said our existing rads were ok. I wonder if the pipe work is too narrow, thus making the wooshing noise louder.
I’m really keen to be happy with our ASHP, our installer is still on hand and is trying to fix so it doesn’t kick in at night but I just wondered if others had silence at night. It would be encouraging to know if that’s possible or whether I’ve signed up for a system that does make night time noise and I just need to get used to it . Thanks

Upupupintheair · 17/04/2021 10:26

@bluebeach the only noise we hear at night is a slight hum from the tank in the loft but it’s really quiet snd you have to be trying to hear it if that makes sense? Our radiators don’t make a noise at nighttime. Only a gentle clicking every so often?

bluebeach · 17/04/2021 10:26

Also 10k-12k including the underfloor and radiators is really good!! Ours was that without any new rads or underfloor.
We did get the green homes grant of 5k and will get additional RHI payments of £2k over 7 years.
Our boiler was broken so would have been paying out £4K for a new one anyway so it’s just been an additional £3k for us to get the ASHP.
We already have solar pv so hoping elec costs won’t be terrible... though with it kicking in at night obv we aren’t using solar for that.
Sorry, I’m feeling slightly sleep deprived. I really want to sing the ASHP’s praises but I can’t as yet.