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Odd one about old public right of way across our garden

77 replies

GlomOfNit · 07/04/2021 18:19

I'm not sure what I'm after, posting about this - I suppose I just wanted some other opinions!

We moved into this semi 10 years ago. The houses on this road are arranged in sort of C blocks (god that sounds like a prison! Grin ) so some are right on the road and some are set back. Ours is set back from the road and accessed by a footpath that serves 4 other houses (it sort of branches at one point. Yes I do need to draw a diagram, I think). The NDNs that we're joined onto are also set back from the road. We are not concerned with them here...

Our other NDNs, we are not joined onto (semis, remember) and their house is aligned at 90 degrees to ours. Their front gate is also served by this footpath from the main road.

They have lived there forever (think the man actually grew up there, back when all these houses were council houses. There are about 20 and I think the council/HA now retain about 5 of them - all others are privately owned, including ours and these NDNs). The guy who lives there is VERY self-assured about his rights and so on. He claims that back in the day, a public right of way path used to exist - it ran from the main road, followed the existing footpath serving these houses and continued through our front garden, running between his boundary and ours but within our boundary IYSWIM, and then into his actual garden, then down what is now his drive and out the back onto the access lane. (an additional wrinkle here is that many of these houses are accessible by car only from the rear. Ours and his are two of those and we have long driveways the length of our back gardens, which feed onto a back access lane.)

NDN Guy has always been mildly belligerent about this old right of way and claims that it still exists, even though no member of the public would now use it, since it ends at his garden fence! He says it's on us to keep it clear and make sure he and his partner can get onto it in order to trim their various shrubs and vines that climb their fence, and that they have every right to do this without asking us. They DO sometimes tell us they're coming into our front garden to trim things - but make a BIG point of saying 'this is just a courtesy to you, because of course this is a right of way' Hmm

NDN Guy says that ages ago (eg before our time) he bought a thin strip of land off the council that, because of some odd foible, they still owned and which ran down his driveway at the back, and was therefore able to make his driveway a) wider, and b) private. He says by doing this, he closed off the public right of way at his boundary line, BUT that since it still runs across our front garden, he and his (annoying) partner can still pop in any time they like, without notice.

I do try to get on with him. He's basically friendly but does like to fiddle about in his garden and is never still. Hence all the trimming, etc. He is v long-suffering because we 'are no gardeners' (in his words) and basically have a long strip of grass and a couple of trees out the back (none of which overhang his property), plus a tallish hedge that screens the boundary between his house and ours. This is sometimes a point of contention because we let it grow fairly bushy (the birds like it) and he wants to be able to see over it from his upstairs windows to the View (which is nice). We know he has no right to a view over our land but hey, we try to keep the peace, so it gets a good prune most years. He also doesn't like the hedge because it runs along this mythical right of way and means he can't access it as easily as he would like to.

So. Not even sure what I want to know. Grin Is he BU? Are we? Is that even a thing, a right of way that hasn't been exercised for probably decades apart from by him? Can it still be a right of way if he actually blocked off one end of it? Does this potentially make our property vulnerable in any way, in the future?

OP posts:
museumum · 07/04/2021 19:40

Farms etc seem to be able to reroute rights of way around the farmyard (and so they should be able to) so can you not just reroute him through his own bloody garden.

GlomOfNit · 07/04/2021 19:45

We've gone through the house purchase documents which include some drawings. Not sure if any of these are the actual Deeds [confused[ but ...

both drawings, datings from the 1980s though we purchased 10 years ago, show our property outlined in red. And sure enough, our front garden appears to 'float' clear of the front of our house. Sad The drawings don't show what the path is or isn't but it does seem that the front garden is separated from the rest of our property by a path-shaped area.

I'm going to have a chat with our friends, who live on the other side of our Irrelevant NDNs. She has a mirrored situation in that the council-in-origin concrete pathing still runs in front of her house and sort of separates the patch of grass she has as a front garden from the rest of her property. I think this concrete path must still very much be in use as it's the access path to her attached NDN.

At some point (before we bought), someone put a fence across this concrete path that runs in front of our house front and our attached NDNs' house front, which it seems used to be used as the access path for this group of houses. It's the continuation of this path that our bolshy NDN says still exists (between our hedge and his fence!) and that he feels free to use. Even though it goes nowhere, because he blocked the end of it off.

FFS. I was heavily (I mean heavily) pregnant when we bought this house and moved in and it's just possible it was pointed out to us and we were a bit 'meh'. Now I'm concerned that we might have an issue if we want to sell or extend.

If my phone can manage it, I'll upload a photo of the drawing I found in the house purchase docs.

OP posts:
GlomOfNit · 07/04/2021 19:49

Hoping this isn't hugely outing - however, I doubt v much that NDN Guy or his partner use MN.

Odd one about old public right of way across our garden
OP posts:
GlomOfNit · 07/04/2021 19:53

See that double-dashed line that runs in a U shape? That's this originally-council pathline. It remains in the form of concreted pathing, old-looking. Some houses use it and some don't. The ones exactly opposite our NDN Guy don't - it's (illegally??) enclosed within their own front gardens. The path from the road NOW runs along the boundary between the two sets of front gardens - looks like an inverted cross on that map. God knows what happened in order to shift it...

OP posts:
AllotmentTime · 07/04/2021 19:59

I’d be inclined to put the onus on him- tell him that you’ve researched the matter (doesn’t need to be true Wink) but unfortunately can’t find any record of this right of way, and therefore you consider this your property and he should not come into it without permission. Unless of course he could be so terribly helpful as to provide you with the documentary proof, and of course you will be more than happy to abide by it?

And yeah, 10/10 for the diagram!

GlomOfNit · 07/04/2021 20:08

AllotmentTime I like that suggestion!

In all honesty, I can't put my hand on my heart and say it inconveniences us to have them trimming bits of their vines that come through their fence (lattice), whilst standing in our garden (or is it??) to do so. They don't do this very often. It's more the smug 'well we can do this whenever we want' attitude that bugs me. My main concern is that we would one day like to extend out the side of our house and I bet there are restrictions about how close to the edge of your property you can build. From the drawings I just found, it does indeed appear that we managed to buy a house where the tiny front garden is separated from the rest of the property by a strip of no-man's land. Confused I'm pretty appalled that we let this happen TBH. But if we want to extend, I bet anything you like that NDN Guy will object on the grounds that our planned extension comes too close to the edge of our land (eg to this 'path' that nobody apart from him uses). He will almost certainly oppose any planning permission we apply for. An extension would involve noise and so on (never mind that he is constantly in his own garden playing with power tools) and the extension would intrude into the sightline behind his house. So I'll really have to find out what exactly is going on before any of that.

OP posts:
user1471530109 · 07/04/2021 20:27

Op, you unlikely be able to extend to the front? But then your set up is different so it's behind the building line so maybe.

Without worrying you further, have you noticed there is a dotted line around your back boundaries too? Where he said the RoW was to get out the back. It does seem odd to have the weird path between your front garden and house. Do you think there never used to be a road and or path before? I may be reading the plan wrong. Is your access road from the top of the pic? I'm wondering if it's like the houses near me who don't have a road but have a path to access the houses. Or it may have been like that at one point, hence the weird RoW?

Anotherlovelybitofsquirrel · 07/04/2021 20:31

Excellent diagram. I'd have fucked him off ages ago though. Twat.

Helpsmearresult · 07/04/2021 20:36

Have you gone on land registry and downloaded your deeds, I know you said you have pulled this from the paperwork you have but you never know land registry may hold something different.
Think it costs about £9. You could also download the deeds for annoying ROW neighbour to see what his shows, and reads. There could be some clause in his deeds that he's not telling you about.
Might be worth a look

user1471530109 · 07/04/2021 20:37

Actually, I think I'm wrong. Just the back of your garden. So presumably a path? I think the concrete oaths your talking about and the double dotted line on your deeds is the original footpath in the 'pod' of houses. Is there other access now? You mention a drive?

GlomOfNit · 07/04/2021 20:37

User1471 no, sorry, the dotted line at the top is actually the pavement on the actual road! Grin The back access lane is at the bottom of that drawing, at the end of our gardens/driveways.

I am still perplexed about where the original path went - the bit that is now blocked by his boundary fence, I mean. He said he'd bought this strip of land that is now part of his driveway down to the back lane so I assume the path went there? There are some council-owned garages (off that plan) just off the back lane and some houses here rent one. So perhaps the path went across the front of our house, behind what's now a hedge and down what's now his drive, to the garages??

it's all very odd, anyway.

OP posts:
GlomOfNit · 07/04/2021 20:39

Helpsmear, I think I'll do that!

OP posts:
user1471530109 · 07/04/2021 20:39

Your deeds DO NOT show what he is suggesting. I'd even go as far to wave them at him. Yes there is an old path across part of your front garden. But not going to his now drive.

user1471530109 · 07/04/2021 20:42

@GlomOfNit but I don't think the plan shows that. I think he may have had an agreement to do that at some point. But now he's blocked it off and it's not on your deeds he can go and fuck off. Show him the plan and act a bit thick and say you can't see what he is saying as the oath doesn't go that way. A path is a dotted line. The U shaped one across your garden doesn't go where is is saying he has access.

I think 🙈

candlemasbells · 07/04/2021 20:47

I would check at the land registry who owns the dotted path between your house and garden. It probably isn’t owned by anyone and you can claim it.

MimiPigeon · 07/04/2021 20:50

Hoping that you just did a rough sketch that didn’t match the actual shape of your property. Because what you’ve drawn is a different shape to the land your deed says you own. It does look like the footpath separates your front garden from your house, and it doesn’t extend across in front of next door’s house as you’ve drawn it. Based on this discrepancy I’d suggest taking legal advice.

EastWestWhosBest · 07/04/2021 20:54

He owns too does he?
Does he have deeds too so you can compare? I’m willing to bet if you ask him he will suddenly remember this right of way isn’t real.

GlomOfNit · 07/04/2021 21:05

Hey Mimi, are you dissing my beautiful diagram? Grin Yes, of course it was just a quick sketch. The drawing from our house purchase papers is the actual shape of things. If by 'next door's house' you mean NDN Guy who is at 90 degrees to us, then no, the path certainly doesn't run right in front of his house (and his adjoining neighbours) any longer! If you mean our actually attached neighbours to the right of us, then technically the concrete path does still run, but someone (not us) put up a dividing fence separating our front gardens, which runs up to the house, therefore blocking off the original path. This path seems to have been mostly superceded and is enclosed in the front gardens who are opposite NDN Guy too. Only fragments of it are still in use. Like I say, since the part of the path that seems to separate our front garden from our house runs into NDN Guy's fence, nobody uses that fragment of it apart from us (because we have always viewed it as part of our front garden) and NDN (because he likes to make that point).

EastWest yes he owns his house too.

OP posts:
Mamette · 07/04/2021 21:15

Rights of way exist for people to get from A to B. If he has blocked access to B then surely the right of way no longer exists/ applies? He can’t have ROW just into your garden and a dead end. Twat. I’d put up a locked gate personally.

user1471530109 · 07/04/2021 21:18

But the plan doesn't show a RoW across to the left of your property. It's only half way across? So I still don't see what he is saying? It's not on the plan.
I apologise if I'm reading it wrong. It's been a long day!

GU24Mum · 07/04/2021 21:18

OP, I've read lots if title docs over the years - I'll pm you if that's ok?

sipsmith1 · 07/04/2021 21:22

If he has been using it for the past twenty years he will have a prescriptive easement over your land. You can challenge its likely he’d have proof through witnesses that he’s been using it if he was born there. If you want to you can prevent him from entering the land and write a letter, he’d then need to prove it. If you keep letting him unchallenged he is making his case stronger.

sipsmith1 · 07/04/2021 21:26

To add a prescriptive easement wouldn’t likely be on deeds. (Former rural surveyor here 🙋🏻‍♀️)

user1471530109 · 07/04/2021 21:29

@sipsmith1 surely if he's blocked off where he was going to with access, he has overridden that right?

That's why I am so grateful that my neighbour stopped cutting through my garden without a fight as he had been doing it for decades.

I found a letter folded up in the shed of a list of names from neighbours (presumably) who had been using a path across some nearby land. They had all signed they had Been using it for 20+ years. Nothing to do with this sorry, OP. But people obviously do take this seriously. There was about 30 names on this list. They didn't do anything with it if I found it folded up in the shed!

PicsInRed · 07/04/2021 21:29

I've compared your diagram bravo btw, top diagram and the title and there are some odd differences.

The original titled land is a different size and shape to yours - was land purchased and added to the left of your property? Do you actually have legal access to that rear accessway as your title seems to stop short?

It appears that your front garden may be using a small part of what is actually land on your irrelevant neighbours title but the "floating land" discussed appears to be in what is currently "bad" neighbor's garden and he doesn't appear to actually own any of that front garden of his at all? Did he do a land grab at some point? He doesn't seem to own his front garden and YOU seem to own part of it?