Help! Who's liable for failed building regs? What should I do next?

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BACKGROUND

I had my loft converted 2.5 years ago.

I worked with a recommended builder who brought an architect. The architect drew up the plans and the builder said they'd sort building regs.

I got an invoice for commencement from the building regs company so everything seemed good.

At the end of the job the builder said "leave it with me and I'll sort building regs".

Sadly our son died shortly after, so pestering the builder was far from my mind.

I gradually started pestering a year later and after another year (!) someone finally showed up and looked very amused when I said the builder claimed they'd been hard to get hold off.

Three months ago I got a certificate saying building regs was failed as our doors aren't thick enough.

The builder tells me:

• The guy they knew at that firm has moved on
• The guy who visited didn't know about old paperwork
• It should all be fine as there was a site visit and plans showing existing doors remaining were shared and approved by the building regs firm at the start
• He's trying to speak with the building regs guy but he's hard to get hold off (clearly a lie, but I'm not sure if that's just because he's busy, can't be bothered, or stringing me along in the hope I give up)

Apart form this, the builder has been much more reliable than most tradesmen I've worked with and seemed like a decent bloke. His original quote was an email listing itemised work, but not explicitly stating anything about building regs, so I'm not sure what I can hold him to. I'm starting to think this is never going to get sorted an I need to know my rights. I'm also starting to loose my mind trapped in lockdown with this going round in my head!

QUESTION
Is there any rule of thumb for who's liable if building regs aren't sorted and I need to get more work done to rectify it? (and if I've wasted money on substandard work)

I feel like I need to threaten legal action, but I don't know if I've got any grounds, or if I'll just loose any remaining good will and hope of him sorting it.

Is it the builders responsibility? The architects? Or am I on my own and need to keep relying on the builders "good will"?

I realise I can't get proper legal advise on a forum, but if anyone has a rough idea of what normally happens in these situations, it would be a massive help.

Thanks

Check your home insurance for legal cover - you may well have access to a free legal advice helpline and/or legal expenses cover.

I understand where you are coming from however what would be cost of replacing the doors with the requisite thickness to get the conversion over the line? Could you sell the doors which are too thin? This is likely to be cheaper and less stressful than trying to compel people to do things for you or taking legal action against them.

The thin doors - are they the doors that were existing before the loft conversion or are they the new ones that were installed during the the loft conversion to pass for fire regs? If it is the latter then I understand your frustration.

However, I'm with @IstandwithJackieWeaver on this one. If it is just the doors that are failing then I would just get the doors replaced and get the pass for BR. It is not worth expending anymore energy in pursuing the builder.

Literally just buy new doors, you don’t need the hassle of getting into a back and forth to resolve.

Technically the builder but it is a nightmare. Staff turnover is high in construction, companies forever go bust and reappear under virtually the same name.
It would be easier and likely cheaper to just change the doors

Thanks for the replies. Much appreciated.

Buying and fitting 14 compliant fire doors at (google suggests) £300 per door for purchase and fitting would be £4,200, plus we've already spend £500 on a linked fire alarm system that was meant to negate the need to upgrade the existing doors.

I agree that often legal action isn't worth it, but at this kind of cost I've got to at least put some more pressure on the builder and suggest the possibility of action.

That's one vote so far saying the builder would be technically liable. Does anyone else have a view?

Thanks

Look at it the other way, if you were selling the house and it was brought up that there are no BR for the work done. Who would the buyer's solicitor pursue? You. They wouldn't ask as to which builder was used so that they can chase them for the BR certificate. So in this case, I would say you, you the owner are responsible. but then I could be wrong.

If you are going to go down the legal route, please check your contract with the builder. What did it say on BR? This will give you a place to start and to see whether you have a case.

This actually reminds me that we should not make the final payment to the builder until snags are sorted and that we have received the completion certificate from Building Regulations.

I am reasonably confident you can get fire doors for £100 a door. Do all 14 doors have to be replaced? I presume (but please check) that the issue is that you have to have a protected escape route from the loft.

My understanding is as follows:

First floor habitable rooms must have an escape window (of a certain size if a new room or no smaller than existing if replacing an existing window).

Above first floor you must have a fire-protected escape route. I suspect this is where the 'doors not thick enough' comes from. So, are all 14 doors between the loft and the closest ground floor exit.

plus we've already spend £500 on a linked fire alarm system that was meant to negate the need to upgrade the existing doors.

I've seen something about this on another thread... don't know if the regs differ down South but I'm reasonably sure that wouldn't fly up here as an alternative to a protected escape.

I would either go back to the building inspector or to your architect and ask them to show you clearly on your drawings exactly which doors need to be of a certain standard and exactly what that standard is. I think the only way 'old paperwork' would be valid is if the regs have changed in the time since the work was complete (possible).

I only know these things because I have just started an extension and have serious trust issues in people's capabilities so like to keep an eye on things myself. If you have professional advice that differs then of course that is more relevant.

Absolute nonsense on the cost of the doors OP I costed a job the other week with FD60 fire doors including fitting for £255 a door. Admittedly there were 70 of the fucking things so economy of scale comes into it but £300 a door + 4K for fitting is a nonsense.

Your builder is the one who hasn't done the work according to regs.
Fire doors are expensive but definitely a must, try Wickes online, that's where we got ours from, Depending on the style you choose, we got glazed ones for downstairs which were expensive but bedroom doors not so much.

What was the building regs company instructed for, and who contracted with them (you or your builder)?

It's all going to come down to what's in the contract(s) and who those contracts are between. If your contract with the builder includes building regs sign off, then he's breached that contract. But, without knowledge of the contract, it's impossible to say.

@lastqueenofscotland

Absolute nonsense on the cost of the doors OP I costed a job the other week with FD60 fire doors including fitting for £255 a door. Admittedly there were 70 of the fucking things so economy of scale comes into it but £300 a door + 4K for fitting is a nonsense.

Pretty certain the total to purchase and fit the 14 doors is 4200, not fitting the doors being 14k ontop of purchase price.

Oops, obviously 4k, not 14k

Ultimately it could have been that the initial advice was incorrect and the doors were always going to need replaced and you were always going to be out that cost. In that case the only "extra" you've spent is the cost of the fire alarm system, which tbh probably isn't a bad idea anyway.

I would suggest to the builder I'd buy the new doors if he arranged to fit them FOC in order to just get it sorted and so we could both move on. That way you get an upgrade on all your doors with free install and your certificate, and he's only out the cost of putting them in.

The alternative is to fight it out, not get your certificate for potentially years and cause yourself untold amounts of stress.

Are you based in the West Midlands by any chance? We’ve had the same issue with our builder, said he would sort building regs, had to chase him for over a year, he kept saying he had sent multiple applications (6 apparently) and hadn’t heard back. Finally took matters into my own hands after he blocked me and contacted his partner to ask for a refund, sort out the inspection myself and the inspector says we’ve been lied to, they only ever sent in one application late last year and the fee was never paid. Inspector isn’t happy with some of the work and builder is saying it was all done to standard.

Surely it's just the doors in the loft which are relevant to this dispute with your builder? How many, 2? I'd just replace them with compliant ones.

It's not just loft doors that need to be fire doors. However bathroom doors don't need to be fire doors so you might save a couple of them.

@DianaT1969

Surely it's just the doors in the loft which are relevant to this dispute with your builder? How many, 2? I'd just replace them with compliant ones.

No it will be more doors than that. When we did our loft conversion we had to replace a load of doors in the rest of the house for the fire reasons already stated.

You will easily rack up a bill of ££££ for solicitors fighting this. So just change the doors. Do you really have the energy to pursue this? It should have been done correctly but things go wrong. I don’t believe fire alarms are equivalent to fire doors in terms of stopping a fire spreading. So change the doors.

There may be a different option - you need to discuss it with the building reg company. We wanted to keep the very lovely original doors when we converted a loft. In order to keep the old ones, we had to put hard wired smoke/fire alarms in all the habitable rooms, except bathrooms and toilets.

Did you put any in as part of the build and could you discuss extending them to bedrooms to comply? I have enclosed a paragraph from a discussion email we had at the time - obviously each house is different.

“Existing doors which fit well in the frames (no excessive gaps) could be maintained even if they are not FD30’s. Existing doors which have glazed elements in would be the only ones that would require upgrading. If this option is chosen then an upgraded LD1 fire and smoke alarm system is required to be installed throughout the property (mains wired detectors to all circulation spaces as well as all habitable rooms (all rooms excluding bathrooms and HD to the kitchen”

We went with the LD1 alarm system, as fire doors only work if you shut doors..... and the original doors were bloody lovely. You might have to extend your system a bit, but doors aren’t the only answer.

I’m puzzled by your reference to a building regulations company OP. Are Building Regs not administered by the Building Control Department of the council in your area?

I've always paid building regs (the council) direct. They are pretty prompt at coming out. Don't know why your builder would get a private one, especially if they were hard to get hold of...
But I've never seen all doors changed with loft conversions, I thought it was just the floors above the second level.

If the sticking point is just the doors then, if the builder had sorted them at the time the work was initially done, you would have had to pay him the cost of the purchase and for the fitting anyway? What are you going to sue him for? Not organising it?

@Midlifelady we had to have all our doors replaced when we had our loft conversion done, the idea is that you have enough time to escape from the second floor no matter which room a fire starts in, not that your new floor is especially prone to combusting!

Firstly OP, I am sorry for your loss

It may be the terminology you are using that needs clarification. Building regs in England are within the domain of the Council. It is not a Company. Building regs are your insurance against a builder’s quality of work and compliance within the standards required to meet regulations. Who has visited the property? The local council building regs inspector or someone else? If you haven’t had the council building regs inspector round, I’d start there. It’s not unusual they’ll accept photographic evidence taken by the builder at the time of the work to sign off compliance so ‘the previous guy’ you refer to may have this evidence? Maybe start there. Then if your builder is the a member of a governing body you could ask them for advice as to how to resolve your impasse. Presumably you want the building regs compliance cert for two reasons - peace of mind and the ability to sell the house in the future without issue?