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How to deal with builders?

21 replies

CrappyGarage · 04/03/2021 14:39

Will try to keep this short but include all info. So we have instructed builders to start work on our house in a few weeks time. We originally got a few different quotes and went with a company who weren't the cheapest but not the most expensive, we liked the main guy who seemed very professional and on top of things etc. He did some work on a friend's house too and they spoke highly of him and the team.

We have now had our lead builder round for a pre-start visit and it is becoming apparent that a lot of the quoted costs are going to creep up. Basically, it seems like they have not looked properly at the ins and outs of each thing we are asking them to do and so the quote is not actually 100% accurate. This is starting to explain why another company were coming out a fair bit more expensive, because when I look back on their quote they have itemised each and every stage of what would need doing in each room, whereas this company have given generic costings that don't actually seem to be specific to what we have asked them to do.

It's hard to explain but I will give an example. We told them that we wanted to knock down the wall between the toilet and bathroom, have a new suite, half tiled, new flooring, basically re-doing the entire bathroom. They came back with a quote of £6k, and I could see this broken down to some extent in the spreadsheet (lines for electric work, supply and fit of sanitary ware, tiling etc). But it now seems like they haven't actually allowed for all the various sub-components of the job e.g. they quoted for removing all the existing tiles on the wall, and then it says half tile, but they then said that often when you take tiles off the wall isn't in good enough condition to put new tiles straight on so it may need replastering. I appreciate that no-one has x-ray vision and can't see what condition the walls are in underneath the tiles, but we had specifically asked for a half tile in the bathroom to keep costs down (i.e. only tiling around bath/shower/sink, the rest will be painted) and the bathroom is currently fully tiled. Therefore even if the walls are in good condition, surely the walls would need to be replastered in areas where we are going to be painting as you can't just paint onto walls that have had tiles stuck on them, it will be all uneven. So then the cost of plastering would be on top of the quoted amount, even though it seems like a pretty obvious thing that is needed (even to me and I'm not a builder). The same basically applies in every area of the house - they did break down several elements of the job but how am I supposed to know all of the components required? surely that is their responsibility?

So for example they have quoted £1200 for 'supply and fit of new engineered wood flooring in hallway'. This is what we asked for, I'm not a flooring specialist so I take that at face value i.e. I assume that I will pay them £1200 and in return I expect to have a nice new floor at the end of it. Builder then mentions today that our floor doesn't look level and that engineered wood flooring needs the floor to be exactly level to fit onto (which I now know to be true). But the quoted cost doesn't include the cost of levelling, so that would be extra. Why not? The guys came round to my house and looked around, so they could see the floor isn't level. I didn't ask them to give me a generic price for how much flooring costs, I asked them to give me a quote for how much it would cost to supply and fit new flooring in MY specific hallway.

I can see the costs spiralling out of control, mainly because the quote we have been given doesn't cover all aspects of the work we have asked for. What should we do now? We have already paid a 5% deposit so it feels too late to back out, but at the same time I'm not prepared for the costs to just keep going up and up all because the guy didn't take his time going round and looking at everything properly to give us an accurate quote.

OP posts:
Midlifephoenix · 04/03/2021 14:58

Yes I would expect them to include making good on the walls and that if floors need to be leveled to include that too.
I was similarly caught out with a quote when adding an extra floor. It was pretty much broken down, snd a couple of exclusions as some things hadn't been finalised, but I was shocked when half way through they suddenly said 'oh and this is how much the stairs will be'! As we had discussed the stairs and one could hardly add a floor without them I had assumed it was part of the original quote, but looking through realised it hadn't been, though it was also not part of the excluded costs.
Anyway, I'd definitely express that you are unhappy as the quote was to be for the full job, and you would like them to give you a new quote with all those other things included. After all, it's one thing for them to discover the floor joist are rotten and need replacing, but to say you can't ever lay a floor without leveling should mean that's part of the quote in the first place - ditto replastering the bathroom. Check your contract too - any additional costs should be agreed and initialed by both you and them, and should really only occur if there is something unexpected or you change the design.

IstandwithJackieWeaver · 04/03/2021 15:20

Does what you received state it is a quote or does it state it's an estimate?

We've had a similar experience - one guy has quoted a lot for labour. Basically this is how he gets round not quoting precisely for everything, he inflates his labour cost to cover any shortfall. If there is no shortfall he makes more profit!

I would be having second thoughts - you could give them the opportunity to revise their quote and see if it's still acceptable or back out now if you are not comfortable.

poorbuthappy · 04/03/2021 15:25

Quote or Estimate?
That's the important question.

wonkylegs · 04/03/2021 15:25

Your contract is the first place to start, this should lay out what happens with regards to extra cost. I would sit down with them now and be frank and forthright because if you aren't clear from the outset then it will only get worse. Did you have a clear written schedule of the work you wanted or was it all verbal?
Tell them you went with them due to the quote they gave and that you need the project as specified.

I advise clients not to pay a deposit unless it's for bespoke items, payment for work done is normal not in advance and certainly on my own build that's outside as we speak, we will not be billed for our first invoice until they get to dpc level which hopefully will be the beginning of next week. It's too late for you now but I would be cautious about payments from now on.

Kitkat151 · 04/03/2021 15:31

My mum had 3 ‘quotes’for her extension.....on closer inspection 2 were in fact estimates.....
No substantial detail to them.....she went with the 3rd and more expensive but paid exactly what had been quoted and itemised down to the very smallest job.

LittleOverwhelmed · 04/03/2021 15:40

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

Chumleymouse · 04/03/2021 15:48

A quote is just another word for estimate, if they had given a fixed price that would be different. But it’s pretty obvious to them that if you remove tiles from a wall it’s going to need reskimming and if your laying a wooden floor it will probably need some amount of levelling, If you let them chip away at you , they will .

MarieG10 · 04/03/2021 17:28

You are heading for right load of grief with this. There are several other threads with posters having issues over costs or not completed.

The quote should be based upon a comprehensive schedule of works that then forms an appendix to the contract that should have all the conditions in it about payment, delays, penalties etc.

The schedule should reference any plans or building control drawings if any and then for each piece of work go into detail. Ie for wiring in each room...number of electrical sockets, single or double. Type and model of electrical fittings especially when it comes to LED lighting.

Tiling....not many tilers want to tile on a wall that has had the old tiles yanked off. They either have it skimmed or they reboard it and tile straight on.

You really need to detail every last thing for each room. e is any doubt, then the builder either says that they will do it (ie lay self levelling compound on the floor) if required or specify the extra cost should it be required. Frankly though any old house will likely need self levelling compound laying as all our rooms have been Up and down.

Doing it like this is a way of the builder keeping a quote low, but then being able to legitimately up the cost, over which they can pretty much charge what they want and you can't do anything.

You need to sit down and have a frank discussion with the builder. Express your concerns and get a schedule drawn up. Make him identify what isn't included and ensure he costs it. You will then start to get an idea of the likely variance.

Please note the contract is as important....my DH drew ours up and ran to 10 pages plus the schedule. The FMB one we saw was heavily weighted to the builder and not the client

MarieG10 · 04/03/2021 17:31

@Chumleymouse

"A quote is just another word for estimate"

Wrong. A quote is legally binding but the issue is stuff that the builder hasn't quoted for. Ie if the quote is to remove the bathroom suite and tiling, make good the walls and fit new suite then it is binding. If it doesn't include making good and relies on depending how much damage is done taking tiles off, then they can charge for that.

Chumleymouse · 04/03/2021 17:50

www.google.co.uk/search?q=what+does+quote+mean&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

Well looking at this it means estimate.

IstandwithJackieWeaver · 04/03/2021 21:15
That is not how a quote is understood in law, which is why consumers are advised to accept quotes, not estimates.
Kitkat151 · 04/03/2021 21:16

@Chumleymouse

A quote is just another word for estimate, if they had given a fixed price that would be different. But it’s pretty obvious to them that if you remove tiles from a wall it’s going to need reskimming and if your laying a wooden floor it will probably need some amount of levelling, If you let them chip away at you , they will .
Wrong......a quote is legally binding
Chumleymouse · 04/03/2021 21:18

Oh oxford dictionary is wrong then.

PlonkyPlink · 04/03/2021 21:26

Having been through building projects a few times, if you have any qualms, use someone else. I wish I had trusted my instincts in the past. Once someone had started the work, it’s impossible to get rid of them even if they are awful, as no-one wants to take on a partially finished job. I’d go with the company that did the more thorough estimate, it showed they are organised and have thought things through. Can you get your deposit back?

Kitkat151 · 04/03/2021 21:32

@Chumleymouse

Oh oxford dictionary is wrong then.
If you can google the oxford dictionary.....you can google ‘is a quote legally binding in the building trade’
LemonSwan · 04/03/2021 21:36

Get someone to write you an NBS for Domestic Small Works. It will probably be a couple of grand but then you have a proper contract with proper specification and that is that.

Chumleymouse · 04/03/2021 22:07

I think most building projects go over the initial quote , the bigger the project the more likely the costs will rise. 90% of the people on the telly go over budget, it’s impossible to put an exact price on everything and also exactly what will need doing once work starts.

Most builders will be reluctant to give a fixed price ( unless it’s a really high one to cover any eventuality ) as there are too many price changes/ delays/ weather/ unforeseen problems etc to do that.

Loofah01 · 05/03/2021 10:20

Put a hold on works; get the head chap round and state your concerns and that you require an up to date and accurate re-costing that will not be exceeded. If that is or becomes an unreasonable amount, they have basically lied to you to get the job and should be binned. Why? Because any decent builder knows damn well the condition that walls can be left in before re-tiling, or floors prior to laying flooring and they should account for that in their quote.

SOME costs are absolutely unforeseeable (I had a shed load during pandemic) but what you describe is a company that are taking the piss.

CrappyGarage · 05/03/2021 11:36

Thanks everyone. I am going to ring them today and get them to come round again and literally walk through everything and agree a cost. I understand that there are some issues that can't be foreseen e.g. if they start to remove floorboards and discover the joists are rotten, but like pp have said there are certain things that can be seen just by looking, and at the moment it's not clear whether those things are included or not e.g. we have had a quote for removal of a particular wall, and when the builder came round yesterday he said it may be extra costs because there is a gas pipe along that wall?! it's perfectly visible on the wall so I'm not sure why that should suddenly be an 'extra' given that it's there staring you in the face. The fact of the matter is that the guy just didn't take his time walking round when quoting.

However I have checked the terms and it does actually say 'quote' as opposed to 'estimate', and there is even a line in the email that says 'there is still some detail to be finalised but the attached spreadsheet will be accurate for budgeting purposes'. Do you think this gives me a solid leg to stand on if he now tries to increase the costs when we do a proper walk round?

Thanks again for advice!

OP posts:
Marieg10 · 05/03/2021 16:52

The quote is good for the work but not for anything not included. Depends on the wording. Ie if including "making good walls for new tiles" covers it

StellaStarfleet · 05/03/2021 16:57

A quote I'd legally binding, as long as you went through everything you wanted and theyitemised that in their quote. One of the examples you gave about the bathroom wall; you were clear on what was needed and they quoted for it. If they didnt factor in the cost of making the wall good for new tiles then that's their problem, not yours because they quoted the whole job and they cant get from beginning to end without doing that so it should have been factored in. Their mistake to not do that, but your quote for the job is binding.

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