Residential Curtilage - advice pl

[Surr3ymummy]

Hi

I can work from home, but can't work in the house due to having a toddler + 2 older ones after-school at home (with Nanny) as my job involves a lot of phone calls.

We're fortunate to have an old stable building in the garden and have applied for planning permission to turn it into a home office. The garden's not that big, and the stables are only 15m from the house - but there is a fence between the house and stables as a previous owner fenced off part of the garden to create a "paddock" and subsequent owners (including us) have had dogs so the fenced area is useful. The fenced off area is less than 0.2 acre so not large enough for horses anyway.

We only want to use the inside of the stables - plan to make no changes to the exterior, we have no neighbours and there were no objections to our application - but it was nonetheless refused.

It was refused on the basis that the stables are outside the "residential curtilage" and that our proposal is "inconsistent with the Green Belt".

I'm confused by this, as, as far as we are concerned it is all garden. DEFRA say that having horses doesn't change the status of the land from residential - so I'm not sure what the council's problem is! The house was built in the 1930s and the stables built in the 1980s - only used for about 5 years I believe.

It seems to me that a planning officer has made an arbitrary decision about our garden, and there is nothing we can do about it. They're not saying it's agricultural land, but that it's just "land"! Can anyone suggest a way forward here or offer advice?

My commute is at least an hour each way - and I could work at home for at least 3 of my 4 working days. My husband also commutes an hour (in a different direction) and could work at home for 4 of his 5 days.

Is it designated greenbelt ? We almost bought a hosue which had acquired part of the garden from a farmer, with vehicle access to the rear, but planning were adamant we couldn't ever build on it because it was designated greenbelt. Did the stables have consent I wonder or maybe there were preconditions attached to the granting of permission for those that it should never be made habitable.

Yes we're in greenbelt. The size of the garden has not changed or been increased since it was built in the 1930s. Stables had proper planning consent - but no conditions about never being made habitable.

Aren't there different types of consent - residential, agricultural, commercial etc - which are not necessarily interchangeable. If it involves a change of use they ,ay not be happy to agree it. Is it worth meeting with the planning officer to clarify the issues and what they may agree to ?

Tried to meet with the Planning Officer on a number of occasions - including before applying - and they won't see you in person. Did speak on the phone but they were pretty unhelpful - and their view is that we can't use it for anything but a stables. They have said the land is definitely not agricultural or commercial or indeed residential - just "land"! But if it was residential when the house was built then why is it different now?

It's really frustrating - it can only be seen from our garden anyway - and they approved a similar application from a neighbour with a cow byre!

Golly that's a tricky one. The only thing I can think of is to wonder whether when the stable was fenced off, was it used as a stable unrelated to the main dwelling. So, for example, was it still definitely part of the main residential curtilage rather than having been severed to form a separate planning unit?

If the Council believes that the land is an individual planning unit, you would need to know upon what basis that decision was made. Like, did they take the erection of a fence as a means of severing the land from the residence? And how long ago was the fence put up, separating the land from the main garden? Think if done more than 10 years ago they may be trying to take the position that the stable had been severed from the main residential "planning unit" rather than remaining part of the residential curtilage.

Afraid that in order to find out what perspective they have taken it would be necessary for you to talk to them. I think if I were you I would write a snotty letter asking for a meeting at the council offices or indeed your site. They really really should accommodate this. Our local council certainly would if a request was put in writing.

It is really not on for them to refuse to enter into any dialogue at all, even if they don't budge. In order to know whether to appeal, you really need to know upon what basis and what policies their decision was taken and it should be clear and transparent rather than an arbitrary decision.

Part of the Council's responsibility in providing a planning service is to provide advice and guidance and in refusing to do so they aren't coming up to scratch IMO.

An alternative would be to seek the advice of a planning consultant who might be able to provide advice about taking the case to appeal. That's pricey though (not the appeal - that is free - but getting advice privately is expensive). You have 6 months from the refusal to submit an appeal. But I don't see how you can address concerns without knowing what the baseline is - what reasoning there was for the refusal.

Good luck!

Just a point: the use of land can change from what was originally intended. So if I was to sever part of my garden from the main house, and that land was used for more than 10 years for uses not related to the main dwelling, then a separate planning unit would have been created without permission, but lawful by virtue of how long the use has gone on for. IYSWIM.

Then, for example, if you propose using the land, which lies in the green belt, for an "inappropriate use" i.e. offices unrelated to agriculture, residential use or so on, that would be a use that would require planning permission and which would be refused for failing to comply with government guidance on green belts and local planning policies.

Is tricky stuff.

When it was fenced off, it was used to stable the owner's daughter's horse - so very much related to the main dwelling. They rented the adjacent field for it to graze.

The council do seem to have taken the view that the erection of the fence - in the mid 1980s has severed it from the main residential "planning unit" - but they also say the fence itself is irrelevant- as I did ask if taking it down would make a difference - and it wouldn't. This is the bit we take issue with - even though it was used as a stables it was still incidental to the enjoyment of the main house - and DEFRA's website clearly states that the keeping of horses for enjoyment is "residential".

They have suggested that we can apply for a Certificate of Lawfulness whereby we'd need to prove that the paddock has been used as garden for more than 10 years. The onus of proof would be on us, and we have only been here for 2 years, and we don't have the address of either of the 2 former owners during the last 10 years - so it will be difficult and expensive to track them down and get sworn statements etc. Then we would have to reapply, and of course, they still may not approve it! So we're in the situation of having to prove our garden is garden, but the council don't have to provide any proof or even vague evidence that it isn't!

We can't appeal as we put our original application in, in 2006 (when I was 6 mths pregnant). Didn't have time to look at doing an appeal due to new baby etc. Recently we gave them a revised application (dropped the previously proposed windows) for a pre-application review - and they've said no way. So we could go ahead and apply again, get rejected and appeal - but that's really my reason for asking the question - is there anything anywhere that defines what is included in residential curtilage?

Also looked at planning consultants - they looked over our pre-application and thought it was reasonable - they didn't feel they could add any value, and suggested we save our money in case we need them for an appeal .

Think maybe need to find a solicitor in land/property law to get a legal opinion...

Have also been to see local MP who has written letter to Head of Planning - after all the government is supposed to be making it easier for women to combine work and home responsibilities - not inhibiting it!!

pooka - your post crossed with mine - and you make a good point. I'm sure they're taking the line that because it was fenced off for more than 10 years that it's no longer related to the main dwelling - and I think they're wrong as its use was still related to the main house.

But I do think it was used for horses for less than 10 years, and a neighbour is still in contact with the previous owner who built the stables, so I could get in touch with him and see if he can confirm whether that is the case and that might be enough... Will be much easier to prove it that way round than try track down the last 2 owners, especially as I think one of them moved to Hong Kong!

Hong Kong is tiny! Honestly, it's a village disguised as a city of 7m people. You could put a post on asiaxpat.com.hk and I think there is a very fair chance you'd find the former owners.

Failing that, could any neighbours/people in the nearest town/village who knew the former owners testify that they did use it as a garden? Would the statement have to come from the owners, or would "I used to regularly go for BBQs there in 1998 when it was occupied by my friends, the XXs" be any use, do you think?

In applications for certificates of lawfulness, you can get statements from people who confirm that the use was residential, like ninedragons said. But.....they're really hard to prove, and would probably get a response along the lines of "insufficient evidence has been submitted to prove that....".

While the fence may be key in having created, in the council's opinion, a separate planning unit, it's removal would not mean that (in their opinion) the use reverts to the original use. Because the land beyond the fence has changed use and become non-residential.

This is hard. Because if you're not altering the stables externally, you are basically in the position of having to apply for permission for something that doesn't need permission. If you apply for a Cert, you don't have sufficient evidence of the use.

I would get a planning lawyer or a good planning consultant involved.

pooka & ninedragons - thanks for your advice.

We will pursue all options - we're AONB and AGLV (area of great landscape value) as well as being outside of the village settlement so that all means they're stricter about what we can do - which isn't always a bad thing.