Building notice but no completion certificate, help!

[arikel]

We are buying a house marketed as a four bed with a loft conversion.

The conversation was completed in 2010.

We have received from the vendor:

A letter from the council acknowledging receipt of a "sketch" and informing that it's permitted development so no full plans required.

A letter from building control acknowledging the building notice and suggesting they will visit the site during build.

A receipt for payment to the same council for "building regulations".

Nothing else: no completion certificate, no information of the works carried out or whether it complied to building regulations.

The building notice is listed on the council website (and came up in LA search) but there is no date for completion.

Furthermore, according to the council website:

"...these types of applications do not require a decision or approval..."

I also believe in 2010, LA were not required to issue a completion certificate unless requested to do so.

Can somebody help me piece all this together and work out whether this is actually ok?

Our structural surveyor thinks the build quality is fine. However both he and our conveyancer are of the opinion that given the lack of completion it’s a bit risky particularly in terms of resale (which we aren’t planning to do for 10+ years).

Any advice hugely appreciated

If it was signed off by building control then the council will have a record so get in touch with them

I'd think it was very dodgy. We had a loft conversion about 10 years ago and most definitely had everything signed off by the Council. They approved the plans, they came to visit once or twice during the build, and then came again at the end to sign it off. It;s not like planning permission in the approval method.

The Council were most concerned about the levels of insulation in the loft, fire doors on the escape route to the front door, and head height on the way up to the new room.

It might be that all work has been done to standard and it's just a matter of getting it signed off. It might be however that if for example the head height is not enough or the staircase is too steep, not wide enough or something that could be really expensive to put right, if at all. You just don't know. Even replacing a few doors for fire doors can be pricey.

It could cause a lot of issues when it comes to resale, however far ahead. Depends how much you want the house - but i'd be asking for a reduction in price to mitigate for the potential costs.

Most people seem to get an indemnity insurance to cover these things. It could be that the council left the case open, they can do this if the owner is planning to complete further works at a later date and by keeping the case open they don't have to pay for another round of inspection although the inspection would still take place. The payment includes any required inspections.
I only know as it's what I've done here, splitting the build into two phases and the final inspections happen when I have completed phase 2.

The only record with the council is for the application, not the approval but there is a receipt so they have paid the council, but for some unknown reason it was never signed off

I've just looked up out loft conversion online. You pay to register the fact you are planning a project, not when it's completed. I think from memory you get 2 years from the date the warrant is issued to finish the project and have it approved. or you have to start the process again.

Our application doesn't show much detail but does show that it was signed off and gives the date of completion. I can't remember if we had a certificate or not but it doesn't matter as the approval is registered for the Council for anyone to check. Sounds like your sellers OP have applied for Building Control, but have never gone back to complete the process.

@RaspberryCoulis, is 100% correct. Building regulations are usually sensible controls to protect properties being built incorrectly. If a owner and builder decided not to get building control signed off, for a major build, such as a loft I would have concerns.

Can they legimately state it's 4 bed..I'm not sure that's the case, given the reasons outlined by RaspberryCoulis. Is loft height sufficient, is stairs safe width and steepness, has it been built to fire standards?

It is the vendors responsibility to ensure they have all the correct sign off and if no building cert then they need to resolve. I wouldn't buy a house with no building regs cert on a loft

I had a loft conversion done about 18yrs ago with building regs, didn't need planning permission. It was inspected at certain points during the build but I never had a completion certificate/signing off. When I sold the house 3yrs ago I simply contacted the council, they sent a surveyor to look at it (took about ten minutes), he signed it off and the council sent me the certificate. I didn't have to pay for any of this because costs were paid at the start.

but for some unknown reason it was never signed off

Usually cost and speed. It's cheaper to build to your own standards not the regulated standards. I don't think the Estate Agent should be marketing it as 4 beds if not signed off as it's a loft room not habitual space.

It was inspected at certain points during the build but I never had a completion certificate/signing off

If it was inspected at various stages then there will be a record, in the Op's case it seems there were no inspections at the various stages so can't be signed off. For example a stage is structural or insulation, these can't be checked now as obviously covered up.

It is always worthwhile getting the final cert, you just need to call the council at the end, as they don't know when you have visited the building work.

Yes, the building inspector came mid-way through to inspect the insulation board which was being used and got her tape measure out to make sure it was thick enough. In order to retrospectively sign that off, they'd have to cut holes in the plasterboard to see what's underneath. At the same time she looked at things like the joists and other techy stuff I didn't really understand but all of that is now covered up. For things like fire doors - which had been ordered but hadn't arrived at the time of her visit - she wanted to see online orders and specifications.

So really, even if it does conform, getting it approved might involve cutting holes in walls and leaving you with remedial work afterwards.

Structural surveyor saying the build quality is fine isn't really the same as it meeting all current building standards, it just means it's not going to fall down. I'm also not sure on the position if the regulations have changed since the first application was put in - I would imagine that they would expect it now to conform to 2021 regulations not 2010 regulations.

Thank you for all your responses. Our conveyancer has suggested either regularisation or price reduction to account for either resale as a 3 bed or getting the works put right and certified. Indemnity isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on by all accounts so that’s not going to help us. Are we missing any other options here?

You can't get indemnity anyway once the council has been contacted.

One easy way to know whether it's been done to standard - can you remember when viewing whether the bedroom doors and living room door had auto close chains on them? That was one of the key parts of building regs. I'd be worried if those were missing that there'd be other corners cut too.

@RaspberryCoulis

One easy way to know whether it's been done to standard - can you remember when viewing whether the bedroom doors and living room door had auto close chains on them? That was one of the key parts of building regs. I'd be worried if those were missing that there'd be other corners cut too.

I don't think those have been needed for quite a few year actually. We had a loft conversion done about 11 or 12 years ago and don't have self closers. We do have a building certificate.

We had works done to our previous house but realised we didnt have the final building regs certificate - so i contacted the council who cane round, had a quick look and sent the final certificate through. They had been round to inspect whilst work was being done but nobody had called then round at the end to sign off. I presumed builder was doing all this but i think he forgot and we didnt notice at the time.

Besides a building inspector would need to see insulation and the steels and pad stones used to support the floor.

I don't think those have been needed for quite a few year actually. We had a loft conversion done about 11 or 12 years ago and don't have self closers. We do have a building certificate.

AFAIK different areas have different rules - we're in Scotland. And there were were separate regulations because we were going from a two storey to a three - I think had we been putting an upstairs on a bungalow we could have avoided the fire doors and chains.

(As it happens we've removed the chains, but kept them safe so we can stick them back on if we ever sell)

To be honest looking at fire escape windows head height etc we (and the surveyor) suspect it has been done to regs but the sign off got waylaid for some reason of which we will never be sure!
Based on these replies I wonder if there’s an argument for the vendors getting the council out to see if they would sign it off?

It's definitely worth asking. Although be prepared to hear that they're not doing site visits because of covid...

@arikel

To be honest looking at fire escape windows head height etc we (and the surveyor) suspect it has been done to regs but the sign off got waylaid for some reason of which we will never be sure! Based on these replies I wonder if there’s an argument for the vendors getting the council out to see if they would sign it off?

I'd say it was worth a go. The council may be able to find all the inspection paperwork and be able to issue a completion certificate on that basis.

It is your vendors issue to resolve and they should be trying to fix it, otherwise it has to be priced as a 3 bed with a loft room.

Insulation is expensive so it's one area that builders can reduce costs however it could make the room very cold. I don't know of a reputable builder who wouldn't call out the inspector at the required stages, it really isn't that onerous.

I think when planning permission is grantedyou get 3 years to start. But I don’t think there is any time limit on when it has to be completed.

I know of a couple of people who have taken ten years or longer to get around to getting a completion cert ( one had to pay an extra £130 because the council said it had been archived 🤔) .

This happened to my loft!

Had a conversion done about 12 years ago. Building control visited several times and so my recollection was that everything had been done according to regs. But when I put my house on the market, realised no completion certificate existed. Builder had dealt with council throughout so I had assumed everything ok.

I got them in to sign off retrospectively and they listed tons of issues (some of which went against original advice). In the end, we managed to whittle the list down and there were a couple of issues to resolve (mostly around fire doors) and then it was signed off. It was a miserable couple of weeks though!

And yes - totally my fault but a very common occurrence according to the council.

The funny thing is the loft was lovely - amazing views both sides, very well insulated and an unusual layout which meant it was really versatile. The space paid for itself through running a business from there, and at other times lodgers and Airbnb.

And now I've moved to a project house, with an ancient loft room. It's totally above board as it's part of original build (1950s) but it's hideous! Death trap staircase that I've fallen down 3 times, useless panoramic view window that's too high to see out of and it's FREEZING (drops to 8c at night)