Delisting a property

[Flymeaway4]

Has anyone had any success doing this? Specifically a grade 2 listing. If so, how did you go about it and what reasoning did you give for wanting it delisted?

I'd love to know this too!

It’s very unusual for a listed property to be delisted unless it’s in truly terrible condition. Guidance here.

historicengland.org.uk/images-books/publications/guidance-de-listing-building/

Hi

Thank you for the document. What exactly would be considered a truly terrible condition? We're trying to get permission to renovate our farmhouse, but the more we look into it the more we realise that it's just not economically viable to do so given the restrictions the Planners are trying to impose. It could cost far more to do it up than it'll be worth and so we cannot get a mortgage for it.

We've also found out that 2 previous owners (one being the original farmer, the other a property development company) have been given planning permission to restore it over the last 20yrs or so, but have come to the same conclusion as us and not gone through with it. Surely if this cycle continues, the building will just continue to deteriorate and it'll never be restored?!

I worked on one for a very wealthy landowner. The conditions were the house could be knocked down if a replica was built using local heritage craftsmen. The house was basically falling down. Money was no object for them and they redid it beautifully.

I’d highly doubt they’d delist because you can’t afford to renovate it to the specification. I’m pretty certain you need permission from the Secretary of State.

We used to live next door to a grade 2 listed property that eventually the council gave permission for it to be pulled down.
It was totally derelict and Im mean totally derelict no one could even enter it let alone live in it, it was structurally so dangerous, no one had lived in it for years. It was also on a flood plain and flooded on a regular basis. It took the owners years to persuade the conservation officer at council that it needed to come down and then they nearly failed as it was discovered had become a home for rare bats!!

We looked into this briefly as we wanted to reinstate older features that got covered up in Victorian times, such a thatched roof and to take away the wall tiles covering original Tudor woodwork. But the house was in generally good condition (we were just replacing the roof and windows and re-insulating it). We could only delist it if it had been incorrectly listed originally, which it hadn't. It's frustrating as the previous owner got it listed when it was desirable to do it and there's no incentive to do it now!

If you read all the stuff re the listing it specifically mentions about restoring it even if it costs more than its going to be worth. Have you spoken to Historic England?
historicengland.org.uk

Or Local Planning Conservation officer?

It really needs a lot of research, the Facebook Group for listed buildings owners is very good

@springdale1 @Funf I guess maybe a ‘money is no object’ budget is what is required for properties like this. But realistically, how often does it happen that someone with no budget comes along? The fact this one hasn’t been worked on in 30yrs, despite receiving planning permission twice, is proof of that really and until someone does it’ll continue to deteriorate until it is completely lost. Surely this can’t be the aim of conservation officers?! I’ll have a look for the Facebook group though, thank you.

@timetochangeyourlife ours isn’t quite that bad, but almost. There are some parts too dangerous to enter and we’re worried the rest will fall that way if the Council put too many restrictions on us.

I’m assuming you’re living in this house the house I’m talking about hadn’t been lived in for years and had been condemned when the last people had lived there.

Frankly I don’t think your going to find it easy to get it delisted and try not to find any rare bats

The reality is then that you overpaid for the house. The choices are to either spend more than you think it's worth and do the work or sell it on again (and hope you find a buyer who also doesn't understand the cost of renovating listed buildings). Trying to get a property delisted because you paid too much for it is ridiculous and is not going to happen.

@timetochangeyourlife what makes you assume that? We’re not living in it, it’s uninhabitable. Parts of it you can’t enter, as it’s structurally not safe to do so, no heating, no water, no kitchen, no bathroom, some ceilings caving in, woodworm throughout and rot in many places, a lot of damp, roof leaks to the point we’ve had piles of snow in the attic (you can see daylight)....etc. It’s also not been lived in for at least 20 years. We’ve had a bat survey though, a few were seen but common ones only at least.

@Sprig1 thanks for that comment, really useful! If it’s impossible to get it done, then why does the process to do it exist? The reality is that we haven’t overpaid and we will find a way to get it done with a budget that doesn’t go above what it’s worth, whilst it’s listed, if we have to. But it would be a lot easier to achieve and we could get the work done quicker and to a higher standard (or cheaper!) if it weren’t listed, hence my post. If you’d like to contribute something useful then I’d be very happy to hear it, otherwise I’ll let you continue browsing mumsnet for hours posting derisory comments from behind your keyboard, if that’s how you enjoy spending your time off.

It used to be that there were grants and funds you could apply for to help with the renovation of listed building, sadly they seem to not be available anymore.
I think it’s very common to underestimate the cost of renovating an old property, we did up our last house and converted attached barns and stables, it cost us almost twice what we had estimated, mainly to reinforce the walls and underpin, it would have been cheaper to knock bits down and rebuild.
Our property wasn’t listed (we wouldn’t have bought it if it had been) but it was in a conversation area. The conservation officer was tricky at times and suggested he might apply for it to be listed, which can happen at any time, you don’t have to be an owner to request a building to be considered for listing, but luckily he liked what we were doing so didn’t try to get it listed.
I think the problem with a listed building is it puts all the power into the hands of the conversation officer and some of them are very unrealistic and so often it means you have to use specialist builders who cost more.
It usually is a labour of love. I hope you can find a realistic way to renovate your building, but as you said 2 lots of owners have not managed to do so it would suggest it is a costly long process, but if you can fund it, you may we’ll end up with a beautiful unique property that is worth a lot more than you paid to do it up.
Best of luck.

Delisting a property is expensive in its own right as you would have to pay for a heritage specialist to detail why it has no heritage significance and put that argument forward.

Planners have to be very careful when looking at cases like the one you are describing. Look at it another way there may be an old listed pub or building and a developer says to the planners it’s too expensive to run please let me delist it’s so I can knock it down and build cheap flats.

Historic England doesn’t essentially care that it’s too expensive for you, they are trying to preserve the history of the building by keeping the original features and hoping someone eventual restored it. Also it’s worth noting that as an owner of a listed building you are a custodian and the local author can do work to maintain the building and then charge you back through the courts. So in theory listed building shouldn’t get too run down because the council can enforce you the owner to carry out works to make it safe. Did you look in to the work required before you bought the building? I don’t quite understand why you would buy a listed building to then look to delist it?

what about the work is proving too expensive? the use of heritage materials and qualified specialists to an approved standard?

i'm not sure then why you say you could do the work to a higher standard and cheaper if it were not listed?

The very point of listing is to ensure changes are managed to an acceptable standard

Depending on how old the building is might depend on how you tackle the issue. Many people just buy a listed building with this idea that they can do most things - then find out they can’t. It’s a sad fact that many homeowners just underestimate the costs.

Could you learn how to do some of the work yourselves? For example if the building was a traditional timber framed building could you educate yourselves in timber frame joinery or lath and plasterwork and take a few courses?

It sounds to me like an evolution of understand listed buildings needs to happen in your case I’m afraid.

@Flymeaway4

Have just reread your comments - you need a traditional builder and an accredited conservation architect to give you an estimate of the works in two phases - structural issues, wind and weather tight and then refurbishment. Start with the first and work with a builder and local conservation officer to help you get this first phase out of the way. I cannot stress how important it is to work with your local conservation officer - make them your best friend, you will need them.

Once the first stage is done then start on the second, the new kitchen and bathroom and decor.

Now some have said that you might have over paid - this may be true - many owners get comprehensive surveys done before they buy so they know exactly what is needed prior to buying - as you have paid the “right” price, then use your survey to start costing the works - speak with as many traditional Heritage builders as you can and see which one fits you best.

I’m sorry to reinforce what others have said but it is very unlikely that a building would be delisted.

Good luck.

Assuming it’s grade 2 listed (as is ours) then you don’t need “heritage materials and qualified specialists to an approved standard” to do all work. Our local council liked certain tiles on our roof (although they are realists and will accept good imitations) we contacted a local roofer when our roof completely needed over hauling no approval needed no discussion with local planning dept. We have applied to change our windows replacing hideous modern ones with ones more in keeping with the extreme age of our house, we applied for listed building consent to change them, this is free, again no qualified specialist to approved standard required, once they approved the design who makes them is up to us. Contrary to what people believe internally permission for a grade 2 listed building is not required to paint walls (yes you can use bog standard Dulux paint if you want too), change floors ie take up lino and put down wooden flooring, tile walls, move kitchen around as long as your not making any structural changes e.g. knocking down walls. There are lots of myths about listed houses including many peddled by local surveyors who see it as a way of making money. We initially fell into this trap but a quick conversation with our very helpful local planning dept (we live in a county with the highest number of listed buildings in the UK) we discovered that you don’t need to talk to them every time you paint a ceiling, change an internal door handle or tile a wall.

Grade 1 listed building are a totally different ball game (my DH is extensively involved in their restoration) that’s when local planning depts, conservation officers and expensive heritage materials and specialists (with large bills) become involved.
If the OP lives in a grade 1 listed property she hasn’t got a hope of getting that delisted.
My in laws knew this building well this is an extreme way of getting round these type of issues .

I grew up in a grade 2 listed building and my parents still live in it.
They’ve done loads to it over the last 50 years and they’ve never used heritage craftsmen or any of that business.

But building that are listed and end up derelict are all too common.
There are a couple where I live now. Both listed but have been out of use for 20 years. Every so often the council do something to keep them going but they are slowly rotting. No one will take it on because it’s too expensive.

@Itscoldouthere yes, we saw that about grants at some point. I can't remember why not, but essentially we weren't eligible unfortunately. I think that is our frustration too, our conservation officer seems very OTT and there seems to be no consistency. The decisions are all very subjective.

@Wonderwalk yes, I can definitely see what you mean. I think the developer who previously owned it tried that route and were obviously unsuccessful. There are many reasons we bought the property - it's in my partners childhood village, we want an old, characterful home, refurbished equivalent ones would have cost £30k+ in stamp duty which felt like money down the drain, even refurbished ones were never exactly as we'd have liked (wrong kitchen, wrong location, small garden etc) so would have required further money spent on them, this gave us the opportunity to put our own stamp on it from the start etc. It being listed was a compromise really.

@Handsnotwands no, we need specialists for the building work either way. Our issue is the time this is all taking (they're insanely slow and lockdown has made them even slower) plus, the multiple specialist they want us to involved who are extortionate. If it weren't for the listed building process we'd be nearly complete with the work by now, which would reduce our mortgage cost in the meantime. The building would also be in a better condition, so building work would cost less etc.

@Littlecaf I think the problem is that the really expensive stuff is structural or specialist and beyond us. We could probably do some painting later though! Thanks for the advice re. builders etc.

@timetochangeyourlife it is grade 2 listed. This is all good advice for the future, but for now we know we definitely need permission.

@StanfordPines it does make you wonder then if their role kind of defeats the object!

Thank you all. We'll speak to our planner, but its seeming delisting won't help our cause either. Was worth a try!

I agree that in some cases they defeat the object. One listed building near me (beautiful building but in a dreadful location and nothing you can do with it) keeps strangely catching fire after people buy it and then discover they can’t do anything with it.

"I think that is our frustration too, our conservation officer seems very OTT and there seems to be no consistency. The decisions are all very subjective."
As loathe as I am to say this maybe you do need to hire a local surveyor with knowledge of your area to liaise with your council.
I got the distinct impression from ours that they didn't really like local surveyors being involved, they implied they just made things more complicated than necessary hence they were very happy to advise over the phone/face to face to quote "talk to us first before paying a consultant". But I also felt that our local council are realists, we have a 1000 yr old architectural feature in our house but its degrading by the week and when we spoke to specialist about sorting it out he said he'd dealt with similar things before and our council our very much realist maybe that's because we have so many lived in listed building in this district?

Conservation Officers - in my professional opinion - are getting more and more demanding, and making the ownership of listed buildings too onerous. And their decisions can be highly subjective. It used to be that approved alterations were VAT exempt, which did help. Highly unlikely that a building can be de-listed. The duty is to preserve, and not to do anything which may harm the character of the building - and to provide justification for any changes. Maybe try and find a local architect who could help you negotiate and prioritise to suit your budget?

You can't just refuse to undertake maintenance works because of the cost. As the owner of a listed building you are legally required to upkeep the building. If you fail to do so the building can be put in the Buildings at Risk Register and you can be served enforcement notice to undertake repairs. If this doesn't suit you, you need to sell and buy a non-listed property.

It is a shame that it all becomes so subjective though isn’t it. Our conservation officer insisted that we use metal painted guttering on the back of the house, no one could see it and most of the existing we were leaving was in place was painted plastic. It did seem a bit OTT even though it cost 3 times as much, we did comply.
My neighbours had a terrible time getting permission to change their 1970s kitchen in their thatched cottage because the conservation officer was involved, it does seem unnecessary.
Friends of mine have recently bought a listed farmhouse in Norfolk, it was being speculatively developed by a couple of builders, my friends got in early so were able to choose bathrooms kitchen etc, her builders were amazing, very skilled and the conservation officer knew and trusted them. They did a fantastic job I’m sure it would have cost a lot more money if they had brought in individual trades to do stuff.
Maybe you could find some builders like that OP (probably like hens teeth 😂).

"My neighbours had a terrible time getting permission to change their 1970s kitchen in their thatched cottage because the conservation officer was involved,"
We own a 600 yr old grade 2 listed house in a conservation area, our council told us they couldn't care less what we did with our kitchen (this is not what not what a local surveyor told us) providing we didn't make any structural alterations to it, we didn't even have to apply for listed building consent to change it.