Damage to listed building...

[WeavingWandering]

I’ll open this by saying I’m calling the council this week for advise- however if anyone has any experiences/thoughts , I’d love to hear them!

I’ve recently moved into a grade 2 listed building which has been empty for several years. The edge of my house is the boundary with the neighbours garden- there’s no fence or anything just the wall of my house.

They have built up their garden quite high up the exterior wall of my house - not sure if it was them or previous owners but either way, it’s been done. As a result, there’s been damp issues causing damage to the listed building.

It’s an ‘easy’ fix (French drain + returning the built up landscaping to its original less flat but more draining/natural state). Legally, they are responsible for this because it’s their landscaping which, regardless if they have done it knowingly- have caused damage to a listed building.

I purchased the property knowing this, and knowing that - legally - things are in my favour in terms of preserving the property.

I’m also not sure how far I push it - just the change to their landscaping to prevent it causing further damage ? Or asking them to contribute to fixing the damage they have caused ?

I don’t want to upset the neighbours so I want to manage this as peacefully as possible... but ultimately it does need to be dealt with and I don’t want to be left massively and unfairly out of pocket. Any thoughts, experiences, doses of courage?!

Hmmm. The damage was caused by the ground level having been too high up the wall for a prolonged period. And you knew the damage when you bought (which was reflected in the price you paid for the property).

Personally I’d say the cost of repairing the building should fall on you (sorry, OP!). I can see why you might say otherwise.

You purchased the house where the state of problems were disclosed.
I assume you had a survey and this would have been the time to renegotiate a lower price based on the cost of repairs.
I think you will struggle sorry.

Fair enough - I was aware of it and the price was reduced based on the work. However it’s also the fact I’m going to have to tear up their garden regardless of who pays for it. I’m a bit anxious about the conversation!

I’m guessing they didn’t have planning permission for any of it since it’s a listed building- and looking at the maps, it’s a fairly recent change of landscaping (last ten years or so)

Bit worried when I ring the council about planning permission for my own works, they aren’t going to be too happy with them since there’s no way that would have been granted permission...

asking them to contribute to fixing the damage they have caused ?
Why would you ask them to pay when you’ve had the money knocked off the price of the house? Sorry but I think you need to pay
the price was reduced based on the work

Sorry I didn’t articulate that well at all. Some money had been taken off the cost of the house - but depending on the extent of the damage- possibly not enough. If it ends up being more - then I suppose I would like some help with that. I’m not trying to be cheeky with it but what if the damage ends up being more extensive than the survey showed ? Obviously it’s my house and I expect to pay for the renovations but ... there’s probably a point when I would feel that they made the decision not to get planning permission for some dodgy work ... But certainly it would have to exceed the money I’ve had off the asking price.

And even if they don’t pay for my property- what about the fact I’m going to have to tear up their garden ? Who’s responsible for that financially? As far as I can make out, I’m going have to tear up their garden because the listed building thing and getting my own planning permission? Although I’m definitely trying to explore other options!

I should note that from a pure ‘legal ‘ perspective as noted by my surveyor and solicitors- it is different for a listed building than for a normal house. So even if under normal circumstances I would and should pay - theres fines and even prison attached to damage to a listed building and a requirement to make it right . I’m not arguing if that’s fair or not because it’s the law and not something I can control - but if there’s a way to make it less problematic for them- I’d like to explore it. As said above, will need to let the council know about what’s happened as part of my own planning application so there’s no way around not reporting it .

Should add ... it’s my first house so apologies for any naivety about it all!

Nobody’s yet mentioned insurance. In your shoes, I’d be asking my insurers’ opinion on whether they see grounds for making a claim against the neighbours; if so, the two insurers can apportion liability and costs. I’d also read up on the difference between planning permission and listed building consent, as some work can require both, just one or neither.

My DH helped a friend through exactly this problem with a grade 2* listed. It was protracted and difficult. DH is a structural engineer but our friend engaged listed building consultants to negotiate with the neighbours and the heritage buildings officers in the end. It’s very difficult to get a neighbours garden sorted out with protracted negotiations. You simply don’t have rights. Drains need designing too because the water has to go somewhere and not under your house.

Often gardens build up over time. Cultivation and use of a garden changes it. This might not be a recent development of the garden.

You will need to pay for changes to the garden and engage with the heritage officers but they won’t negotiate for you. That’s down to you and it’s difficult. It essentially means the neighbours lose part of their garden to drainage.

Get some quotes for remediation the damp. Ask the council on their recommendation for approaching the neighbour as their work has damaged a listed building. It might be they take it out of your hands.
Then you’ll know where you stand and can plan some actions.

Will do :)

Does anyone know about who pays for their side of the wall? Installing the drain, etc. I can see completely the logic about my paying for the works to my property - but am a bit less thrilled about paying for the works to theirs when they would have paid as part of their landscaping if they hadn’t been dodgy about it !

As others have said, who pays for work in the neighbours’ garden is likely to be a matter of negotiation. You’ve mentioned your solicitors. Have you spoken to them about this? There are two questions here: who’s liable in law for the damage and then, assuming that is your neighbours, how to reach agreement with them about costs and getting the work done. As I said earlier, I think you should also speak to your insurers, but perhaps after you’ve spoken to your solicitors.

They have built up their garden quite high up the exterior wall of my house - not sure if it was them or previous owners but either way, it’s been done. As a result, there’s been damp issues causing damage to the listed building

OP can you explain what it is they have done that has caused the damage? I'm trying to work out what landscaping to their garden would have needed planning permission? Sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick

If the garden works needed planning then the Council planning dept can insist your neighbour removes the work done (assuming they won’t give planning permission for it!).

I can’t see how your neighbours could be forced to install new drains - unless theyre reinstating something that was there when your property was listed.

I think you need to get phoning people!

@Daisydoesnt... my guess is in a normal situation , it wouldn’t have needed planning permission so I’d like to think it wasn’t done intentionally...

But .... looking at Google maps, the original landscaping was shrubs and ‘porous’ planting with natural sloping , so intially ground water would have flowed down the slope away from the house and into the drains/naturally run off. Since putting in the new development, they have raised all of it to be a flat surface , so instead of running off , the water just sits. In order to get the flat surface , they have raised it a foot or so up my wall . The kitchen window in the old pictures looks to be a foot & half off ground level, now it’s less than 6inches. My guess is that took a significant amount of soil being levelled- and I can’t help feeling as they laid grass up to my kitchen window, it would have been fairly obvious it wasn’t a great thing to do!!

By replacing the old landscaping which was quite varied with grass, apparently that does something to the draining as well? The proposed idea would be to have a French drain which would flow into the current drain at the bottom of their drive way and then to plant back over it. From what I’ve been told, things with broader roots (like the old shrubs) would help drain things further as opposed to grass which is terrible for drainage...

So I imagine the replacing plants with grass probably didn’t require planning permission - but shifting that much soil?! And the drive way looks like it’s been newly laid as well .

As said, first house ... just going off what builders and surveyors have told me.

Our buildings insurance had to pay for repairs to our neighbour’s Garage, our tree had grown against it and cracked the walls/damaged the roof.
The tree was there long before their garage, they built it right up to the party fence with no access down the side for maintainance but we were held responsible and had to pay £1000 to have the tree removed, their work was paid by our insurance.

Usually listing includes the buildings setting, so changes to the immediate vicinity aren’t allowed. Also changes that damage the building. So even works to neighbouring garden, that wouldn’t ordinarily need permission, will do.

Originally - I wasn’t too fussed about paying for it - but since seeing the before &after pictures, I feel like they had to have known as they were packing a foot of earth right along the entire length of my house it was likely to cause problems ...

We had this issue. We mentioned it to our neighbours and they offered to dig the earth back away from the wall.

If the garden works needed planning then the Council planning dept can insist your neighbour removes the work done

Only if the work was started less than seven years ago.

Whatever you do, don’t let ‘specialist’ damp proofing firms anywhere near your house.

Have a look on youtube for Peter Ward, he goes around sorting out the problems caused by these fraudsters.

^obviously if it came to it ... I’d prefer for them to pay because it’s their damage to the property at the end of the day. But now I feel more inclined to push for it if I have to

@Changi

We had this issue. We mentioned it to our neighbours and they offered to dig the earth back away from the wall.

If the garden works needed planning then the Council planning dept can insist your neighbour removes the work done

Only if the work was started less than seven years ago.

The Council can only enforce against development if it is less than 4 years since the work was undertaken (10 years for a change of use).

I'm not sure of the situation for Listed Building Consent.

However, LBC is only required for works to a LB.

The scale of the groundworks undertaken at the neighbouring property will be important in establishing whether an engineering operation requiring planning permission has been undertaken.

In planning/LB terms I would say the situation is far from clear. I don't think you will get an immediate answer from the Council.

Do you know whether it was the current occupants of the neighbouring property that carried out the alterations to the garden?

As you bought the property knowing there was a damp problem, I doubt whether your insurance will be willing to get involved in any claim.

Did they ask the then-owner of your property for consent?

Op and know you said you want to approach this amicably with the neighbours bit you need to brace yourself that regardless of the outcome with will create bad blood. I’m not saying don’t address it because clearly you need to but don’t expect them to be happy about any aspect of it. As such definitley do what other posters have suggested and get it all mediated through your insurers and the council. Take some advice before speaking to the neighbours at all so you’re not making any assumptions about who’s going to end up being liable. Once you’ve spoken to your insurance and the council and know the lay of the land (sorry couldn’t help a bad pun) you need to speak to them to let them know factually and without emotion that you’ve discovered this issue, and that it needs to be rectified, that your sorry for the inconvenience but that your insurers will be in touch to get their insurance details and that you very much hope it can all be resolved with the least disruption to both parties.

I think that you probably need to employ standard negotiation tactics i.e. start high then negotiate down to somewhere above your red line.
Ask a lot and the neighbours might be quite pleased to settle for 'only' reducing the soil level.

The Council can only enforce against development if it is less than 4 years since the work was undertaken (10 years for a change of use).

Very true, I'm getting my countries mixed up.