No building regs, how nervous should I be?

[ParadigmDJ]

Hi guys, I have a couple of questions regarding our house purchase if I may? It’s a long one so thank you for reading :)

We’re a fair way down the process for the purchase of the new house and sale of our property. Mortgage offer has been confirmed and the Building survey is happening on Monday.

Obviously the stamp duty holiday deadline is a significant factor in when we’re aiming to move.

However last week I got a call from the vendors EA stating that the remodelling that has happened in the downstairs (2-3 wall removals, making it very open plan) has never been subject to building regs sign off!

They’ve offered indemnity etc but this really isn’t worth the paper it’s written on in my opinion.

The Vendor has also commissioned a structural engineer to go in and cut holes in the plaster to review the steels used which is great. However they aren’t looking at the underfloor (which has had underfloor heating installed as part of the works). The note from the engineer states:

“As per item 6, our inspections and report will be based on super-structure (above floor level only). Since we are only able to comment on above ground works, inspect, check and comment on the supporting the top beam and the two posts, but not below floor level and how the ground receives the load, will our report be adequate for the potential buyer?”

Another factor is I have paid for the Level 3 RICS Building Survey based on the house being 100 years old. How much confidence should this give me?

Works were completed in 2017.

My options are:

Providing both the Engineer report and the building survey come back clean, go for it. Then when we move in apply for building regs (in case we ever sell)
Push back on the vendor; ask them to apply for building regs. We’ll miss the stamp duty holiday so may drop our offer by this amount
Pull out

I’m leaning towards option 1 however my wife is firm on option 2 saying even with both reports clean, because of the fact the floor structure won’t have been signed off, she won’t feel comfortable taking on that risk (both in terms of BR compliance and general safety).

Would we be stupid to go for Option 1?

First of, I assume you are in England?
Are you saying this house had a works done 3 years ago that required structural work, yet the vendors cannot provide any evidence of Building Control involvement?
If so, I wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole, who know else has been done on a 100 year-old house without any approval?

What is it about the floor structure that is of concern? What are the potential problems?

Id be ok with SE report but why werr building regs not carried out originally?

In terms of peace of mind option 2 is the best. In terms of striking a good balance and considering the house hasn’t fallen then option 1 is fine. Personally I’d go for option 1 but that’s solely based on my feeling that the floor work would have been okay and it’s unlikely the house is in imminent danger of caving it. You should have time post purchase to look further into it.

You should negotiate on the price because of this unexpected hassle.

Can you get a off the record view from the RICS surveyor on the likelihood that the floor work would be an issue?

We are in a similar position. Will you be getting a mortgage? If so you will have to tell the lender that there is no sign off...they will likely change the valuation and/or the amount they are willing to lend against it.

Massive problem for us. We are about to miss out on the house due to this as the vendors won't agree to the new valuation.

Yes we’re in England.
Apparently the “builder was meant to do it”. It’s 100% the vendors fault here for not checking but I’m wondering how much I can push them. I would assume any buyer would be nervous (not according to the EA, obviously!) so they can’t really call my bluff and happily put it back on the market without checks if I pull out.

I will be speaking to the RICS surveyor straight after the survey on Monday and they are fully aware of my concerns so hopefully this will give us more of a steer.

The bottom line is that the floor needs to be ripped up for a full assessment, I think. Either by a SE or by building control...

The fact it’s been there for 4 years and as far as I know there’s been no problems gives me a bit of comfort. Both reports coming back clean gives me even more comfort. Neither give me 100% comfort without full building regs but everything is a risk in varying degrees

If the builder was supposed to do it then did they have the floor inspected at the correct points through the build or take photographs?

I'd be concerned that due to wanting to save a certain amount of money on stamp duty, you're risking losing a lot more money in devaluation on any future sale if you push ahead with option 1. Option 2 is definitely the best option.

We pulled out of our purchase recently because we found out there were no building regs on a garage conversion. We'd been told right from the beginning that they were in place and only after repeated badgering from our solicitor did they finally admit they weren't.

It wouldn't necessarily put me off in future though. But in our case 1) our surveyor had already said that the conversion looked a bit shoddy and 2) we would have moved again in 5 years and didn't want to inherit a problem that might make it difficult to sell.

We knew that to completely redo the conversion would have cost us about 10k Initially we said we would drop our offer by 5k (my husband could have done some of the work himself) and then we would have got the sign off ourselves.

Our buyers didn't accept this and we pulled out. They've just reduced the price by 20k...

In the future if it happened again, I would get as much info as i could about quality and costs to sort it out and have it signed off. And also think about how much I wanted the house and how long I'd stay there, and drop the offer accordingly.

To add, in your case, I would tell them to get it signed off and drop my offer by the stamp duty amount. They'd be silly to turn it down as they'll just run into the same problem with any buyer. Hopefully it night just be the final sign off that was missed, which should make it easier. Don't be afraid to hold your ground though. We got fobbed off so much and only really found out the truth near exchange.

I'm with option 2. 3 years isn't long enough to know that the ground works offer sufficient support for the new layout.

Full building control sign off or no purchase and a reduction in price to reflect stamp duty etc..

Pull out

Pull out.
Having had building works done years ago, getting building regs signed off was the easiest bit.
That they haven't bothered ensuring they have them would make name wonder what other short cuts they had taken.

Me, not name

At the moment this is the sellers’s problem,don’t make it your problem
Insist on retrospective consents

They've pulled out most of the walls on the ground floor and haven't got the appropriate sign-off?
For such work, it is often the case that pillars need to be reinforced and the foundations strengthened which is why the statement on the floor is there. People tend only to think of beam work. It's very difficult to know if that was needed or if done, to what standard.
I would find out what the surveyor says but would be prepared to walk away.

Btw it's not the underfloor heating that is an issue. It's whether the foundations can take the load of the pillars supporting the beams.

Definitely do not proceed without building regs sign off. Indemnity isn't really worth the paper it is written on.

They will hit the same issue with any buyer and you may find that once the reports go in and the mortgage company find out there is no sign off they nay withdraw the mortgage offer

Having had building works done years ago, getting building regs signed off was the easiest bit.

Not for us, we finished extension two years ago. Paid the guy for building regs he said he'd request photographs which he never did, we took loads anyway.
It took 12 months of pestering to get him to actually come and sign off.
When he eventually came he walked through the house had two coffees and asked if I was happy with our kitchen and appliances as he was thinking of the same brands. He didn't ask a single question about the extension

It's not worth what you're paying because it doesn't have the same resale market other similar appearing houses have. You'll have the exact same issue when you come to attempt to sell, with potential buyers pulling out. You'll also struggle to get buildings insurance which would actually pay out when you needed it. Of course they'll take your premiums in the mean time.

This is aside from the obvious - will it actually hold up in an earthquake, subsidence or fire? Could it survive the vibrations of renovations next door, or in the same row (if semi/terrace) or might it internally collapse? Could you do future work to the house without risking the structure...or risk alerting council to the issue, at the same time invalidating the worthless indemnity policy?

Frankly, you'd be mad to pay them just to make their problem into your problem.

It is really stupid of the sellers to not get building control, like others have said, it’s their problem and they are not going to get away with it easily, unless they luck out and find a buyers who’s will to accept just an indemnity.
Getting the steels checked isn’t that tricky but means making biggish holes in the wall. Same with checking the floors.
I would consider taking it on for a big price reduction but I’d be thinking £10,000. + and you’d have to be happy with all the mess and disruption it would cause, so I think ideally I’d tell them they need to get it done before you exchange, if it means you miss the stamp duty reduction, I’d want that off the price as well.
They will have to realise they made a big mistake not doing due diligence at the time and it’s now going to cost them money to put it right.

Go for option 2 and even then consider whether you want to risk it

We had an extension done similar time with lots of structural steels put in on the original house. Also had UFH. The technical work from the engineer was substantial and the building control spent a lot of time checking everything.

The reality is that even cutting into the plaster board won't be able to verify the steel strength and integrity. Did the vendor and builder use a structural engineer to size the RSJs? If they are even slightly under strength you will over time get deflection and the walls above will move and get bad cracking. It won't tell you if they cut corners and joined steels in the middle....to put in perspective we had two steels amounting to 1.5 tonnes which required a crane to lift them over the house and specialist lifts to put in place

The building regs ensures very extensive insulation in the floor and it might not be there...in which case you will be heating the underground.

You have to ask WHY he didn't get building regs approval and my answer if because its done on the cheap. There won't be a structural engineer report with sizings (£500 usually) and what other areas will have been cut back in.

No reputable builder could do this work without making sure there were building regs approval.

As so as you notify building control the insurance is invalid. In any event, the insurance indemnity won't pay out if you get subsidence or deflection. Neither will your house policy

I would walk frankly

@TwoBrews

Having had building works done years ago, getting building regs signed off was the easiest bit.

Not for us, we finished extension two years ago. Paid the guy for building regs he said he'd request photographs which he never did, we took loads anyway.
It took 12 months of pestering to get him to actually come and sign off.
When he eventually came he walked through the house had two coffees and asked if I was happy with our kitchen and appliances as he was thinking of the same brands. He didn't ask a single question about the extension

We had an agreement with the builder that the last installment wouldn't be paid until building regs had been signed off. We had them visit a few times during the build, so it was just a formality at the end.

I would have a surveyor check that the work is safe. I would then ask for indemnity insurance.

it really isn't a big deal and won't be a big deal for future buyers either - the main concern is the work has been done correctly and is safe.