Help me see my neighbours perspective please!

[languageisleavingmeinsilence]

thanks for reading:

I let out a flat, one up one down maisonette. Tenants lived there for more than 5 years, they were ok. 3 years ago new owners moved in downstairs. Around 18 months ago those occupants contacted me to say there had been a leak. I got a plumber round to investigate and couldn't find a cause. Downstairs owners sent their plumber round, no one could figure it out. My plumber actually sat outside for an entire evening waiting for the drip drip to occur to see what my tenants had been doing. Eventually we found it was a hairthin crack in the bath (bath was around 4 years old). We replaced that bath with a reinforced bath and offered neighbour to repair the ceiling - neighbours said no, just wants to move on. Ok. About 4 months later, downstairs neighbour reports a second leak. We investigate, Again cant see anything. Staked the place out again! Seemed to happen when tenant had very full baths. Requested they no longer did this until we discovered what was causing the leak. Needless to say they just couldn't help it and continued having long deep baths. Ugh. Anyway we found that the overflow drain on the side of the bath had been knocked off by the tenant in some way and they put it back on, but not well and this caused the second leak. During this period I just thought it best to give them notice until we could figure out what on earth was happening - tenants that suddenly became reckless or just bad luck or what. We also planned to make the bathroom as watertight as a wet room and needed tenants to move out for this. DURING this notice period, I kid you not, the tenants said they accidentally left the shower running when positioned over the side of the bath so it flooded the bathroom, much to the annoyance of downstairs. For leaks 2 and 3 downstairs neighbours refused to alert my tenants when the leak happened, instead they waited until the morning to call me to then call my tenants. I told them I empathise and that the tenants had been given notice in any case and I couldn't do more than caution them to be more careful. I also provided my tenants with extra absorbent towels to put on the floor while using the bath because I couldn't understand how this could happen three times in the space of a year.

Neighbour downstairs contacts me and demands that I pay for the damage to the ceiling. I say 'we have insurance' - we are shared freeholders so have one building insurance policy. They refuse and tell me to make the claim. So I call the insurance company, they tell me only the owner of the damaged flat can do so. They refuse again on these grounds:

1. The insurance premium will increase and our lease says we should do-nothing to increase insurance premiums
2. They don't want to pay the excess
3. I am liable as owner of the property
4. they consider the problem to have been wear and tear so not eligible for an insurance claim

I offered to pay half the excess as we shared the cost of the insurance anyway. They refused and instead got someone round to fix and presented me with a bill of £2500. I had no insight into the appointment of the tradesperson, no evidence of the damage that needed to be repaired, and I called the insurance company who said the neighbours had never contacted them at all to ask whether premiums would increase, whether the claim would be eligible, nothing, but that from what I've told them it is a simple water escape issue that they deal with everyday.

So now we are going to court in the summer.

I cannot understand my neighbour. Why have insurance if you'll not use it? I can't see how I'm liable for my tenants' actions (leak 2 and 3). Excess is a bummer, but it's part of the insurance process. I could go on.

Please help me to see that I'm wrong. I need to work with this person for as long as we both own these properties (I can't see that I'll sell any time soon).

I was your neighbour once! Owned the downstairs flat, tenants above. Joint buildings insurance with upstairs owner.

We had the nearly the same problem, but it was an issue with the kitchen and a water leak.

I'm afraid I'd agree with your neighbour and would not want to claim on the joint buildings insurance, and therefore see an increase in premiums.

It was not their fault that there were issues in your flat that caused the leak, why should they have to pay for it?

However they're VERY unreasonable to just get the work done and present you with the bill. Not on, not neighbourly. Should have worked with you jointly on getting tradesmen in and quotes.

In our case we didn't claim on insurance or present them with a bill. We were intending on lowering the ceilings anyway for soundproofing, and we did the work ourselves.

Sounds like a horribly messy situation for you and I hope you can resolve things ok - flats and owners and tenants can be a nightmare. I loved the flat we had, apart from that!

I totally see your point. It is horrible.

I guess it is an assumption though? Sometimes insurance premiums don't go up and you can always search and search for a good deal. And I do wonder then, why have insurance for this type of thing if you won't use it when the time comes? Surely that is a waste of money!

I'm also curious as to whose fault my neighbour might be thinking it is? It's not mine, and I have insurance as a landlord to protect me against mistakes my tenants might make. As you can see I am really really struggling here.

Another thing is that they didn't contact the tenants to report the leak when it happened. They let it leak and contacted me in the morning asking me to contact the tenant, which I did of course, but in that time surely the continued leak keeps drip dripping?

For me it's a bit like driving a car. I loan my car to my sister to drive. She reverses into another car while parking let's say. The owner of that car demands that my sister does not go through insurance but instead that I, not my sister, pays for the damage to that car out of my pocket.

I can't get my head around not using insurance and instead asking your neighbour whom you have a business relationship with via the shared freehold, to court.

From my position - where to go from here? Is it that my neighbour will take me to court for anything that happens to the flat forevermore regardless of having insurance in place? I don't even live there. It's not that I can control what my tenants do. It just seems strange to me. And I can't help it that gravity would make water go down rather than up!

Why on Earth should they pay the excess when the issue is entirely related to your flat and your tenants? They have been really inconvenienced by multiple leaks; the least you could have done was to apologise profusely and to make sure they did not suffer financially.

Your redress would be against your tenant if they failed to notify you of damage to the plumbing/continued to use the bath against advice.

This happened to me a couple of years ago when my bathroom leaked into the flat downstairs.

My insurance company informed me that my only obligation was to ensure I stopped the leak and unless the neighbours could prove I deliberately caused it then that's as far as the issue went.

The neighbours claimed against the buildings insurance to fix the damage and we ended splitting the cost of the excess given the circumstances.

I'm not a solicitor but it's my understanding that in flats there is a chance that leaks and other issues can arise and that is what the insurance is there for.

I can understand why your neighbour tried to lean on you to try and avoid putting insurance premiums up, since it’s natural for them to feel it’s ‘your’ tenants causing problems.

However, you are right that having tenants isn’t like having dogs, you cannot police their behaviour.

Your neighbours have also acted like total prats not informing your tenants of issues on the day and in just presenting you with a Bill.

So overall I’d just be polite to your neighbours but be firm - you appear to be in the right. If you waterproof the bathroom I wouldn’t go assuming their will be trouble in future, but if there is, assuming the court finds in your favour they will have a clear lesson in the fact that insurance is there to be used.

The neighbours’ perspective is that their property has been damaged three times due to someone else’s negligence. They were philosophical and reasonable the first time, annoyed the second time, sick to the back teeth of you and your tenants the third time.

I think the decent thing to do would be to meet all their uninsured losses (excess, increased insurance premiums) and throw in a bit extra as compensation for all the inconvenience.

Your car analogy is apt. If your sister is driving your car and causes damage to a third party vehicle, the third party would claim their insured costs from their own insurers but additional uninsured costs (excess, hire car or taxi costs, for example) from you as owner of the car, not your sister as driver. These extra expenses would be covered by your car insurance.

Thanks All.

@HeddaGarbled

I think you might be right re my car analogy. I have no argument with that. As you point out there, it requires them to claim on their insurance first, then a claim can be made on my insurance, as per normal, as expected.

I truly do understand the feelings that my neighbour has about it. I didn't just throw my hands in the air, I actually evicted my tenants of 6 years standing, that wasn't easy, I'm not even sure it was fair on them. I also had loss of rent etc in changing the bathroom to ensure no more leaks. I'm not unfeeling or unsympathetic, but I do feel a little got at with this bill and going to court.

I simply do not understand why you would bother having insurance if your will never claim on it because the insurance premiums 'might' go up - remember, we don't know. And in fact, the insurance policy requires that any damage is reported whether a claim is made or not because they need to be aware of the condition of the property they have issued a policy on. So I did inform the insurance company and they would have taken that into account in the net year's premium.

I also don't know the skillset of the tradesperson that repaired the damage, and I can't have confidence that person was effective in repairing the damage. Had we gone through the insurance any further fall out from the damage and/or repair (it being more severe than originally thought for example, or the fix not being good enough ora dressing everything that needed to be done) or anything else, the insurance company would have been involved already and we would be all covered. Now we aren't. The car analogy again. Say you don't go through insurance, you demand instead the other party pays out of pocket instead. You thought it was simply some damage to the bodywork, so you got that fixed without insurance being involved. In fact it was something far more dangerous and serious which wasn't addressed, that thing goes wrong shortly afterwards - what a mess and will your insurance cover it?

I always just go through insurance. The risks are too high otherwise. That's what it's there for.

Oh dear, I'm not doing well and being persuaded otherwise. I needs some acceptance therapy!!!

I have specific landlord insurance for my rental to cover things like this. Does your joint building insurance even cover you if the damage is caused by tenants?

Downstairs shouldn't need to pay anything for this - no excess, and no increased premiums. I doubt the (joint) buildings insurance would cover this last issue anyway. It isn't a building fault (water leakage) - it is 'accidental' damage. Check your policy.

In my view your tenants have been negligent twice. That is what damage deposits are for. I'd suggest you pay for the damage to be repaired. Take it out of the damage deposit. If not enough then you could claim off your landlord insurance if it covers this.

The neighbours downstairs have become rightly pissed off with you messing them around and costing them money and aggravation. They have given you the opportunity to resolve. You haven't. So they present you (the liable party) with a bill.

Seems straightforward to me.

As an aside - have your tenants and downstairs had a falling out? Or are they annoyed with you as a landlord? It seems odd that your tenant would flood the bathroom during the notice period.

The first two leaks could be seen as unfortunate as not deliberate but the third does sound your tenants deliberately put too much water in bath which caused the water to go downstairs through ceiling.
I agree with your neighbours that it is your responsibility to fix their ceiling but they should have basked you to get quotes and sort it out. If you had to make good the ceiling 3 times instead of once it would have cost you £2500 and possibly more. It could still happen again. If your neighbour had claimed 3 times on his policy in 1 year he would probably struggle to get insured again. They would have lost any no claim discount they had amassed because of your tenants. I think you ought to pay the bill tbh.

Ok, so it seems those who think I should pay are basing this on the opinion that my neighbour was inconvenienced and rightly upset about it.

I agree it is an inconvenience and upsetting, but I'm still not seeing how that means I should forget that I've paid for insurance that year, every other year, and every year going forward to cover exactly this eventuality. I'm also not seeing how that means excess falls to me (please remember I offered to pay for half, just as we split the buildings insurance premiums, as I thought this was fair going forward should I have ever be required to go through insurance for any reason too). The excess of all insurance is paid for by the claimant. I don't know why, but it is. My understanding is that when you are found to not be at fault this is recoverable. If my neighbour really objected to paying any premium they could also have taken out insurance to cover against this.

I found this online:
www.thetenantsvoice.co.uk/advice_from_us/damage-caused-by-the-tenant/
What are tenants’ responsibilities towards repairs
The Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 sets down the responsibilities of both landlords and tenants. Section 11 deals with the issue of repairs and states that tenants should be:

“Making good any damage to the property caused by the behaviour or negligence of the tenant, members of his/her household or any other person lawfully visiting or living in the property.”

Any damage caused by you, a family member or a friend will need to be repaired and paid for by you. It is your responsibility to make sure this happens. This includes damages caused by neglect – e.g. if you didn’t turn the water off at the mains when going away in winter you would be liable for the damage caused if the pipes burst.

Damage to other properties
If you cause any damage to another property this is also your responsibility. So, if you live in a flat and flood the flat below you will have to pay for it. Similarly, if you damage any property belonging to a neighbour you will have to cover the costs.

Your landlord or agent is not responsible for any damage to property or items that belong to others – you are.

• Of course this is so, otherwise no one would ever become a landlord. I did suggest this to my neighbours, but I guess I am the easier person to pursue? Doesn't make it right though, and in any case the tenants have now gone. Though should I lose in court I do have the option of tracking them down and taking them to court, but sigh, why not just go through insurance?!

And, I suppose, even if the tenants had their own insurance to cover any mistakes they made, my neighbour is refusing to go through insurance, so it wouldn't matter.

I'm just confused about why we took out insurance to cover these things when we have no intention of using them.

Thank you all for your responses!

They shouldn't have just gone and done it but you were really unreasonable to expect them to be out of pocket and pay an excess. I'd be well pissed off at that. There should be no financial loss to them for something that is nothing to do with them.

Surely they, being on the receiving end of damage beyond their control, are entitled to feel aggrieved. They should have told you the cost beforehand but really it is down to you are ll to fund the excess and insurance increase at least. If the tenants were deliberately careless do you have ll insurance?

Similar circumstances, the effected party was told they had to claim through their insurance. There was no choice in the matter, I won’t bore you with the ins and outs of it but my company rented the flat but subletted it, management refused to claim
off our insurance so the business that was underneath had to claim off theirs. Reason being is that’s what insurance is for and the damage was in their property. It was a horrible situation though. There was no recourse to claim off the tenant.

The reason they have insurance is to cover problems that happen to the building that are not the fault of their neighbour. Something they caused, or another accident.

Equally why aren't you claiming on your landlord insurance? Isn't that to cover negligence by tenants?

It sounds like they spoke to you about this several times and you weren't open to discussing paying for the work so went ahead as it urgently needed doing, assuming worse case they can take you to court later.

If you want things to stay amicable as you plan to own this flat for a long time, I would apologise and pay the bill and next time they approach you about damage engage with them so they don't go ahead and complete the work with someone you've not vetted or seen quotes from. I don't personally think taking them to court is worth it over £2k when you consider it's probably going to sour relations with people who you ideally want on side.

We live in a flat and it is very clear, that however unreasonable it seems, the person who suffers from the effects of the leak has to claim on their insurance.

We have recently started to redecorate the six (SIX) parts of our flat damaged by leaks from the flat above. Each time it was mainly bad luck apart from the most recent when the British Gas engineer left the ball cock down on an overflow and over the course of the night water poured down outside our kitchen wall slowly finding a way into our kitchen damaging the wall and ceiling.

It's annoying, but part of living in a flat. As the insurance company made clear the correct process is to make an insurance claim. You are not liable for the £2500.

My neighbour made a small contribution as a gesture of good will, which I accepted.

I can understand your neighbours frustrations.

Are they actually taking you to court? I can't see how they would win as you're not liable. Are they just saying they will go to court to pressure you?

Paying it won't help neighbourly relations anyway.

But to your defence, like any situation like this it should be 3 quotes and for you to fix the damage which you already offered to do. They can't just go ahead and get it done, you have no idea if the person doing the works is a friend who's jiggled the invoice.

Another option is the tenants deposit? I agree with you that the tenant is negligent for leaks 2 and 3.... Have you presented the bill to them?

You are being very unreasonable. Your tenants are no ones responsibility but yours! Your poor neighbours have had their ceiling ruined through sheer negligence and you can’t understand why they wouldn’t want to pay the excess and incur a possible higher insurance premium so that you are not inconvenienced?! I would have paid the tradesman bill they presented and apologised profusely to them! Then I would also have taken it up with the tenants, as you could rightly be expecting them to pay to put it right. You seem to think of yourself as the victim here when it’s your neighbours who have been inconvenienced.

I would suggest you review what the lease says (accepting you both own the freehold) as it makes clear or should do where responsibilities lay.

However, ultimately they have presented you with the bill and the insurance will provide cover for your liability so it isn't an issue that the other Larry refuse to claim. The fact there is now an incident recorded will be enough to up the premium in my experience.

As a result of mine and friends experiences with house insurance, I would never claim for anything under at least £1000 as the future hit on premiums isn't worth it

Thanks for contributing everyone.

I don't at all think I am 'the victim'. I've said many times it is horrible for them. They are aggrieved - like everyone who has ever had to make an insurance claim because of damage or losses caused by someone else.

It's not clear how I've been negligent? Can you explain this better for me?

The tenants caused me no issues for 6 years, a family with children, NHS doctor and nurse, so I don't think they were a bad choice of tenant and I was negligent in my selection. I can't cut off their access to water, I can't evict them without going through the proper channels (which I did).

Yes, I have LL insurance. I have been told by our insurance company that the neighbour downstairs has to make a claim. I cannot make a claim for someone else's property. My neighbours could have paid the excess or even just the half of it as I offered to pay half. They could then have taken me to court for the half of excess they paid, right, rather than £2500. They chose the latter. On the topic of increased insurance premiums, that is a hypothetical. Sometimes premiums go up, sometimes not, often they go up with no claims made at all! That is the nature of insurance which we all sign up to.

If you live in under another property there is a chance you will get a leak at some point. If you live under the roof, there is a chance there will be a leak, etc.

I simply think we have insurance to cover this, that's all. I'm not sure how it is reasonable for me to pay for insurance year in and year out to never use it just to pay out of pocket instead. It's a waste of money for all involved.

Going to court because you don't want to pay half of the excess for an insurance claim nd because you think maybe your insurance premiums will go up (by how much, £30 a year? less? a bit more?) is strange to me. Why enter into public record dispute with your neighbour. Why have I not backed down and offered to take it all on? Because there needs to be an understanding about these things. We have insurance, let's use it. In future it could be a bigger issue that my neighbour decides I should pay for. I don't want to open myself up to that. I'ma landlord, I'm doing and have done everything required of me, and a bit more in actually moving my tenants on, making the room water tight and offering to pay half of the excess.

Ok, home schooling is calling for me!

thanks all

You should insure your flat. You claim on your insurance.

The freehold Insurance is usually for building defects, eg roof leaking. Not individual leaks from your bathroom which almost certainly wasn’t repaired properly.

You should insure your flat and claim from that. Or you pay from the money you have made from letting the flat out for all these years.

Perhaps if you'd offered to pay all the excess in the first place they might have sucked up three insurance hike.
I should think it's your attitude they don't like. I don't like it either.