house buying - fair price for fittings and fixtures?

[acathy]

I'm buying, and selling, and wondered how you hit on a fair price for fixtures and fittings. You're advise to find out what prices items fetch second hand, but I can't find any of mine listed for sale. Could people advise on a percentage - if you were offered a nearly new cooker retailing at £1,400 new, would you expect to pay half the value, two thirds, three quarters? Same question for a £300 washing machine. Any thoughts hugely welcome

@NotMeNoNo

I would include everything being left behind in the price, and not quibble about it. Our shelves, cooker, shed etc, all of which were technically F&F but basically belonged to the house, caused stupid drawn out bargaining and bad feeling in a sale everyone was trying to hurry along. It's an estate agents game to start asking for more money after you've already agreed a deal. You would be lucky to get 25% of the new value unless something practically still has the labels on.

It's difficult when your seller is playing a different game. 1/3 of the new price is standard for something secondhand. IF you want it.

I'm really just thanking everyone here for terrifically helpful comments.

It's reinforced my instinct that I should just leave the fridge and washing machine along with everything else in the kitchen for my very nice buyers, and keep my fingers crossed that the sellers will come down on the price of their cooker, which I really can ill afford at £1,000. It will just leave a very large gap in the unit if they remove it, and that could be expensive to sort out, along with the cost of a new one of the right size

We completed on a sale and purchase just before Christmas. Fixtures and fitting were included in the sale (& purchase). This included window coverings, floor coverings, light fittings and integrated appliances (not freestanding appliances). You can ask your buyer if they'd like to purchase your washing machine but they may say no, in which case, you have to remove it.

As PP said, you can't consider the boiler as an extra. We had just had a new boiler installed 7 months before moving which comes with 5 year warranty but that's on us. Our buyers scored out of it whereas the boiler in the house we bought has a 10 year old boiler which we are now having to replace. We didn't get a discount on the price of the house because of this.

* my fingers crossed that the sellers will come down on the price of their cooker, which I really can ill afford at £1,000.*
If you feel lucky you could call their bluff and say take it. Chances are they won't want the hassle.

Range cookers come in standard size increments. There are hundreds for sale on ebay as faddy people are always taking them out of kitchens. Guarantee you will find something to fit nearby, pay for one of those oven deep cleans, job done. Definitely check out for a price comparison.

IMO second hand cookers are good value as they don't actually have that many moving parts to wear out, normally they clean up fine and you can get spares from espares if needed.

What is the intention? Many use chattels (white goods etc sold with the house) to reduce the stamp duty threshold?

We've got a freestanding Range cooker and freestanding washing machine and I've just included them.

I'ld normally expect the value of something once used to halve and then go down at an annual rate over say 10 years of the rest. So in your case maybe £500 for cooker and £100 for washing machine. I wouldn't charge for either as compared to transaction value its peanuts. If I was in negative equity I might I guess. Or if I had wanted to keep it and buyer had requested it so I needed to buy a new one unplanned. Though even then would probably just include.

I believe this is a historical thing from when chattels were exempt from stamp duty (helped the buyer) and the sale price used to calculate the EA fee (helped the vendor). They now have to be included in the stamp duty valuation so haggling over such relatively small items compared to the total value of the house is just a PITA. If a vendor didn't include things like obviously fitted white goods or a range cooker I'd ask them to stop messing about.

If you're already down this path, you'll need to balance how much it would cost you to replace them vs. how tricky it would be for the vendor to remove. Not rights or wrongs, just what you'd be happy to pay.

They are being mega cheeky on the cooker price. We just bought a new ex showroom display range cooker for far less than £1000, it took a fair bit of searching to get that but while looking we saw there are many different options (inc second hand, cheaper brands) for much less than they are asking

There are range cookers cheaper than £1000? Are they worth buying?

I would call their bluff. £1000 for second hand is too high. Personally I think it should go with the sale and all kitchen items that affect functionality should stay. Mine are all built in and at the moment, I would be leaving a virtually new Miele oven which was £1400. If we moved it would have to stay! But you have to factor these things into the price and if we moved, my new kitchen would be equipped with a similar oven - I love it!

It's reinforced my instinct that I should just leave the fridge and washing machine along with everything else in the kitchen for my very nice buyers, and keep my fingers crossed that the sellers will come down on the price of their cooker

OP I think your instinct is a good one. Like others I think your vendors are being incredibly cheeky/ slightly deluded over the price of the second hand range. As others have said, they do come in fairly standard sizes so if by chance they take it with them (I bet they won’t) you will be able to fill the space.

We’ve just moved into rented and our LL has installed a fantastic Falcon range. Wow I thought; about £4K worth (it was brand new - hadn’t been unwrapped when we got here). I mention that as it’s a second though (has a dent on the bar that runs along the front) so was a fraction of the showroom price.

My seller wanted 50% rrp for everything, and was then miffed when I declined almost all of it. In the end they left me some things for free as they were too big to take them - wardrobes etc. But made me pay for the fireplace surround and some other things that I had assumed were integral to the sale, the tight git. It still annoys me seven years later.

This is a frequent question.

Buyers offered on the house, for the house and fitted fixtures and not because they wanted to buy a load of second hand appliances. However, sellers often think they should be able to sell their second hand appliances at a price similar to new or what they would get in the open second hand market.

It’s always best to make clear when offering what needs to be included in the price and to list everything. If it’s fitted, it should be included. If you want it included, name it at offer stage...eg curtains.
If sellers want to charge extra for items (and sometimes they feel they’ve spent a lot on them and want to recoup something.....when in the realm of hundreds of thousands for property, personally I think even expensive curtains should be included) then it really should be a token amount, and not an attempt to extort what they would get ina Jedi g war on eBay. If they want to get the max price possible for their second hand items, they should sell them on the second hand open market.

And people should feel free to say no they don’t want things without fear that the sale might fall through or people be offended. People forget that second hand items are not to everyone’s taste and when second hand lose a lot of value even if expensive first time round. Curtains that cost thousands when new are worth a fraction second hand.

When negotiating, make clear that if the seller chooses to remove anything, it must all be made good - so if a range of wrenched out causing a hole in the floor, it will need to be repaired. If light fittings are removed or fitted wardrobes taken out, the walls must be repaired. Ensure you get a list of what they will remove and commitment to repair and say that if these things are mentioned you will need to do another viewing before exchange to check the repairs are done.

In most cases, if communication is good and sellers realise they will have to make good, they won’t remove items that cause damage. They might choose to remove curtains etc....that’s up to them and unless specified as included in the sale, is fine.

Just be very clear upfront about it all.

And sellers, be realistic that a house sale isn’t the place to flog lots of second hand appliances for top whack.

We had a seller want to charge us for the AGA which had been fitted for over 60 years.

To remove it would have left a vast hole in the floor and unconnected pipe work and holes in the wall. They wanted £2k for it.

We declined and said they were free to remove it if they wished but we expected a complete floor and walls and gas supply ready for a cooker. Funnily enough, they left it.

I presume that sellers sometimes just find selling and buying expensive (don’t we all) and just decide to try and recoup a few hundred or couple of grand along the way. In the bigger schemes of money involved in property buying, it’s pretty daft, especially when it causes so much resentment. It often seems a way to voice bitterness towards the other party...perhaps when buyer offered below asking price, or there has been a delay. Personally, I’d say, only accept an offer where you are prepared to include all the fitted stuff (that really must be included anyway) and probably the applicances anyway unless you won’t have them at your new place. In most cases, leave curtains unless you really will use them at your new place. The same goes for light fittings. Get beyond deciding to take, just because it cost you £300. See that purchase as a totally separate thing from the house buying/selling and that this isn’t the time to selling on and making extra money, if you want to do that, do it before the house goes on the market and replace with basic items you will leave. If you really do love the curtains and will use again, it’s fine to say that upfront and take them. If leaving, try to leave for free or recognise it will be a nominal sum...and to be honest, if it’s going to be a couple of hundred for a few items, is t it really just worth throwing them in?

I would simply refuse to pay that for the cooker. Offer £500 or say take it with you. You have the upper hand in that negotiation.

I’ve been of the view not to complicate a transaction that is so annoying. I’ve always said bar fitted appliances the vendor can take or leave whatever they want (so long as they let us know what they are leaving, not junk, but curtains or cupboards etc. I’m happy to just bin/ give to british heart foundation or use... however I’m not up for paying for extra old furniture I didn’t choose.) our current one is taking the light fittings and the washing machine, which is a bit annoying but an excuse to buy a clothes preserving Miele one that my parents got recently that is so quiet. They are also taking some curtains but I have some my mum made that she has volunteered to alter to fit and they are leaving the curtain rails (I laughed at that - where would they fit!)

For 1400 I guess it’s a range? Is it relatively new? I think 1k seems a bit high.

I’d make a counter offer of what you’re willing to pay.

It is standard to leave those things, although some people try to take everting and flog anything else, but I can see if it relatively new they would try to recoup some cost.

I've always left the stove and I certainly wouldn't pay £1k for a second hand one!

Thanks again everyone for your advice and experiences . what a brilliantly sane and savvy bunch you are. I feel so much clearer in my mind now

I'd been questioning whether I was being stingy making a counter-offer of £750 for the cooker, but if they aren't happy with that, they can take the range with them, and I will say the contract must have a clause that they make good the area and leave the gas supply ready for reconnection. .

And I definitely won't charge my buyers a thing.

I was advised that anything integrated had to be included as part of the sale so no extra costs. However, freestanding appliances were not and could be agreed upon separately.

I wouldn't be prepared to pay more than 30% for the cooker unless it is still under warranty and the warranty passes to the new owners. In that instance certain I would probably agree to 50%.

Re washer...same again really.

I think £750 is still a very generous/over generous offer!

When we bought French holiday home the vender asked if we wanted to purchase furniture. We thought they meant a nice really large leather suite in lounge and a huge coffee table and a large kitchen table to seat 12. We said yes they said 2000 Euros we said OK as dining room table is a beautiful antique. It turned out they meant everything. 2 four poster beds, 5 other double beds, duvets/covers/pillows/ mattress topers, pillow protectors, wardrobes, chests of drawers for each bedroom, fridge/freezer, washing machine, table dryer, curtains and blinds in every room, cutlery, crockery, saucepans, coffee machine with frother, iron and ironing board, microwave, even tea towels and mugs, vases, jugs. Of course we did not realise this. We were speechless after we completed we collected keys thanked venders and went over to house and it had everything. We rang and checked if they were coming back for it. Told no we had bought it. We felt guilty we had not thanked them more as clearly worth douch more than we paid. Everything was really good quality too. We went into shed in back garden and there was lawn mower, strimmer, surf boards, spade, fork, hoe, clippers, garden bistro set and chairs, sun shade and barbeque, briquettes even weedkiller and a few spare bags of gravel. We certainly got more than we bargained for.

You could always sell items on eBay if you don't want to take them.

Unless the cooker is pretty much brand new and you'll be able to get the benefit of the end of any guarantee period, you'd really be better saving your money for a new one or saying that you don't mind paying a nominal amount (more like £300) but otherwise can they confirm they'll leave it and make good/leave it ready for a new one as you're about to order a new one. That will flush out what they want to do!

Last year we put an offer in on a house for an extra £2500 the vendor slung in a bottom end of the range washing machine and tumble drier, a mid price range (£1.5k) American fridge freezer all less than a year old and barely used a top end of the range 110 wide Rangemaster induction cooker a new one costs nearly £2.5k (I’m not sure I’d pay that for it it’s good but not amazing), Also various bits pretty useful and again hardly used bits of furniture e.g a bed that was never used and all curtains. I’m not saying I’ll keep them for ever but useful in the short term so it seemed a pretty fair price to me.
If the vendor had wanted a lot more I think we wouldn’t have paid it because none of the brands would have been ones we would normally choose.

£750 is definitely overpaying. You can get brand new one from website selling unwanted stocks or grade A (unused return) appliance for 30%-70% of original price. If you really want this particular model, I would offer £300 as they will be unlikely to fetch much more in eBay after fees. If you don’t really want it other than filling a hole in the kitchen, just telle them to take it and leave the space immaculate with gas pipe sealed etc.