Is anyone worried about green futures?

[AcornAutumn]

As proposed by Johnson

I’ve put this here as I don’t want a political conversation but a practical one

In future, I hope to have a house and garden and dreamed of having a fireplace. Now I read that Johnson wants to be rid of gas boilers - I can’t see how mum’s house would do, heating wise, with electric. I have electric in my tiny flat and that’s fine.

But being out in the countryside and having Agas or oil heating and generators etc for back up, is he trying to make that a thing of the past or the preserve of the seriously wealthy etc?

Be interested to hear thoughts.

I know they look lovely but woodburning stoves (even modern compliant ones) and fires pump out particulates into homes. I was horrified to see how much - will try and dig out some studies.

Particulates are particularly dreadful for breathing and respiratory system and some are carcinogenic.

I know they are cosy but I wouldn't have one in my house. Especially with children in it.

Using gas for cooking also pumps out more nasties than you might expect.

In the long run, most homes could switch to air or ground source heat pumps. These use a small amount of electricity to extract heat from the ground or air. Solar thermal is also an option where solar panels are used to heat a tank of water during the day that is then used for heating your home in the evening

Yes, they are expensive to buy now (although then very cheap to run) but like solar panels or any other form of technology, they will get cheaper and more efficient over time.

Blocks of flats will likely switch to a centralised heating system using waste heat from power generation (known as combined heat and power plants - the heat is normally wasted by just going up a chimney). Again municipal heating networks are very common in Nordic countries and eastern Europe where the cold has long since encouraged efficiency.

Key to making a success of this will be massively improving insulation in homes - double or triple glazing, insulated plasterboard or external insulating render, insulating floors and roofs to a much higher degree than is normal now. More to Scandinavian levels!

Underfloor heating (the wet kind not electric) works well with heat pumps and solar thermal because the water in it doesn't need to be as hot as in radiators - which blast out heat to reach the other side of the room and so are quite wasteful in comparison

There is some talk about using hydrogen which would use a boiler similar to the way we have a gas boiler today but the technology to captures and store carbon when making hydrogen is not yet at commercial viability so it may not really turn out to be an option. The jury is out on this one.

And yes we really should be aspiring to make oil fired generators and agas a thing of the past! They are bad for the global climate and also really not good for the air quality inside your home.

You can still have an Aga if you like the look of them - electric versions exist.

Your rural idyll will just have solar panels (a small turbine perhaps if you the land!), way more insulation and better windows, a battery and/or solar thermal water tank, heat pump (ground is best if you have a big enough garden but air is fine)

You can watch a fire on a flat screen TV while being in a warm home with no particulates and without pumping more carbon into the atmosphere.

Heating is a massive chunk of our carbon emissions - way more than flying. We have to cut carbon for heating if we are to have any hope of reducing the rise in global temperatures.

“You can watch a fire on a flat screen TV while being in a warm home with no particulates and without pumping more carbon into the atmosphere.”

Oh no, that isn’t remotely the same thing.

I realise all heating systems are different but I can’t imagine what I have in my flat being able to heat mum’s house.

My ex had a fireplace and it never aggravated my asthma or anything like that.

I will be honest. Assuming mum goes before me, I had hoped to live in her house. If it has to be made green compliant, the cost of running it would be impossible.

It sounds stupid, but I absolutely adore the place and if I can’t live there, that would be a great shame.

More worryingly, I think of these things are priced out then the chance of living in a flat for life might be high? How depressing.

I can’t see how we’d have enough electric to run everything that way?

I think that things are evolving, most of the legislation change relates to pushing change in NEW housing forward which will increase the availability of solutions.
There are lots of options out there and there is some debate as to how it happens but I think it's going to be a mix of solutions.
Improving building fabric is a big one and without that a lot of the solutions out there don't work that well who is why it's easier to push these changes in the new build market. However I think that for main stream acceptance we need to think holistically not just at energy generation, but energy need reduction. There is a big push in the building professions to look at retrofit and to stop disincentivizing it (at the moment new build is cheaper due to the VAT rules)
We are actually behind on this, as a nation we were on the right track before the last recession but then the conservatives stopped or severely curbed a lot of the initiatives that were pushing change.
Now they have realised that we are a bit behind the curve they are pushing again but we have lost some of that momentum and some of the companies that work on it. I think Brexit is going to have an initial impact because we import a lot of these technologies from Europe and it will take time to encourage home grown initiatives.
Sorry a bit of a ramble there - basically I think the technology exists for us to make these changes but it's tied to politics and economics. The economics will improve but only with a political push and I am yet to see actions (rather than talk) from the current government which support this.

I know you didn't want a political discussion but at the moment they are very much linked.
Purely practically Gas in existing houses will be here for quite a bit though, new builds it's on the way out to be replaced by newer tech supported by better insulation standards so not comparable to your flat. For an example look at Gateshead Innovation Village - whole estate of new housing not on gas and they are monitoring each house type to see what solutions work best.
On existing houses we will need to look at improving building fabric to reduce heating requirements as well as alternative tech which we are doing albeit slowly and part of this needs to look at the VAT on sustainable house improvements. My advice is always to draught proof, insulate and sort out ventilation then look at energy generation when upgrading projects.

I read an article at the weekend about this www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/heat-pumps-have-a-cosy-home-without-warming-the-planet
It says the cost of retrofitting heat exchange pumps is about £20-25k. That’s going to be a non-starter for most, even though a good long-term/green solution without subsidies. And explains why it’s only really realistic for new builds.

The 'not enough electricity' thing is a worry however the idea is to use a holistic solution that requires less energy input rather than like for like and then at a National scale look at electricity generation.
So for example underfloor heating to get the same ambient room temperature as radiators requires heating the system to a much lower temperature so less energy input. The figures vary from 15-40% less.

@CrypticQueen it is very expensive at the moment but that's partially due to supply and demand. They are still relatively rare, once it's the standard tech for new build those costs should drop across the industry.
This is demonstrated in Germany by the state subsidiary of solar power which enabled a bigger uptake and subsequently unit costs dropped massively.

The cost of heat pumps will fall over time. There is an established "learning" curve in technology - tech is expensive at the beginning and gets relatively cheaper when production scales up and knowledge of it improves efficiency.

And really - open fires are terrible for you even if you can't sense it triggering your asthma.
I know they look lovely and atmospheric. But really - they are bad for you and the planet.

Also - the electric heating you have in your flat is not the same as what I am talking about re air or ground source heat pumps. They heat water which then flows through your underfloor heating or radiators - just like your gas boiler heats water now. They aren't electric radiators.

Previous posters mentioned policy - retrofitting can be made much cheaper by removing vat on it to bring it in line with new builds.

And the cost of running the house would be lower not higher - you would be using much less energy and potentially generating some of it yourself with solar panels.

This isn't going to happen overnight and no one is going to march into your mother's house and demand she switch things overnight.

But lots of people will happily spend money on new kitchen units and fixtures and fittings - some people have no spare money but plenty do. And they will need be nudged and encouraged to spend some of that on reducing the carbon and air pollution imprint of their house

@CrypticQueen

I read an article at the weekend about this www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/heat-pumps-have-a-cosy-home-without-warming-the-planet It says the cost of retrofitting heat exchange pumps is about £20-25k. That’s going to be a non-starter for most, even though a good long-term/green solution without subsidies. And explains why it’s only really realistic for new builds.

That’s huge and probably the heating bill after would be huge.

I wonder how long gas will be around.

“This isn't going to happen overnight and no one is going to march into your mother's house and demand she switch things overnight.”

No. But if I live in it later, or any house was gas and fire, it could potentially happen to me.

*with, not was!

We live in France and most people have wood burning stoves, we have a Rayburn wood stove and big fire with back boiler which heats our very old stone house. I have allergies and have never had a reaction to the stoves being on, I would be interested to see what they pump out? I'm worried now!!!

The smoke produced from wood stoves and fireplaces contains over 100 different chemical compounds, many of which are harmful and potentially carcinogenic. Wood smoke pollutants include fine particulates, nitrogen
oxides, sulfur oxides, carbon monoxide, volatile organic compounds, dioxins, and furans. Breathing air containing wood smoke can cause a number of serious respiratory and cardiovascular health problems. Those at greatest health risk from wood smoke include infants, children, pregnant women, the
elderly, and those suffering from allergies, asthma, bronchitis, emphysema,
pneumonia, or any other heart or lung disease.
Fine particulate matter, the very small particles that make up smoke and soot, may be the most
dangerous component of wood smoke pollution. The most harmful particles are those ten microns or less in diameter (a human hair is approximately 70 microns in diameter). These particles can easily be inhaled deep into the lungs, collecting in the tiny air sacs (called alveoli) where oxygen enters the blood,
causing breathing difficulties and sometimes permanent lung damage. Inhalation of fine particulate matter can increase cardiovascular problems, irritate lungs and eyes, trigger headaches and allergic reactions, and worsen respiratory diseases such as asthma, emphysema, and bronchitis, which could
result in premature deaths.

I find it truly terrifying that so many parents who would be horrified if someone smoked cigarettes in the same room as their children use woodburning stoves or even worse open fires. Even modern woodburning stoves emit these particulates, just a bit less than old ones. But that's like saying some cigarettes are low tar.

(My credentials include MSc In energy economics, gas and power market and technology analyst for 15 years)

Even the Mail has covered it although it will presumably get hysterical later at The Government Taking Away Our Freedom To Harm Ourselves and Children with Wood Burners

www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6402031/Wood-burning-stoves-emit-six-times-pollution-diesel-truck.html

The heating bill would be much less not more. Look at the guardian article - they spend £1000 less on energy than they did before.

You have a high upfront cost but the running costs are lower. And as established the high upfront costs will fall sharply over time - so whenever you eventually come to do it, it will not cost as much

Modern tech will be your friend, OP. By the time it's necessary, the solutions will be in place.

You don't need to worry about it yet.

@picklemewalnuts

Modern tech will be your friend, OP. By the time it's necessary, the solutions will be in place.

You don't need to worry about it yet.

I hope you’re right. It would be a factor in where I chose to live in future.

About half the total cost of retrofitting a ground source heat pump is the pump itself, and half is the digging according to the article. To retrofit an existing home with a ground pump requires extensive digging and will cost upwards of £20,000-£25,000... The pump might fall in price over time, but the digging is unlikely to get cheaper.

Ground source is only one system available
Air source is much easier to fit as are CHP and electric combi's boilers

I lived in a rental apartment in Switzerland which had a wet system underfloor heating (which was lovely, although it would take a day to heat up). It also had a log fireplace, triple glazing and I guess was extremely well insulated. The roof was flat and had plants growing on it as a form of insulation. However.....the open plan living/dining room was tiled flooring (hard on the feet) and the bedrooms engineered wood...again hard on the feet. We did have some rugs, wall to wall carpet pretty much unheard of there afaik.

I now live in an early Victorian Grade II listed house, which is beautiful but is not eco-friendly... It has large single paned windows (some have the original shutters for use at night), a log fire, a gas Aga and gas central heating (boiler is 3 years old). The walls are Purbeck stone, approx 1 foot thick...no chance of cavity wall insulation lol! I have no idea if a house like this can even be retrofitted with heat pumps (some rooms have slab stone floors). I wonder if a listed house will be exempt from the ‘Green Futures’ initiative?

@Pinotpleasure it can be done but will obviously be a bit more complicated And may take some specialist advice as improvements that would be suitable on a more modern house may not be suitable or even cause damage in a historic building.
I always say that whenever you are doing maintenance you should look at whether or not there are other minor works that could be done to upgrade as the costs & disruption could be less if the work is co-ordinated. Draught proofing is a big one on historic properties and can be relatively easy to do as a first step.
We have a Victorian villa (not listed but In CA) that we have upgraded thermally where we can both building fabric and controls, massive difference from when we moved in and much more comfortable to live in, the smart heating controls were expensive but have now paid for themselves in savings but we still have more we can do.
Here is an example of a grade 2 eco retrofit house project (not one of mine) clarenasharchitecture.co.uk/project/grade-2-listed-home-green-retrofit/

Historic England have some good free guidance historicengland.org.uk/advice/technical-advice/energy-efficiency-and-historic-buildings/

I don’t think a few wood burning stoves in this country is going to make much difference when there are billions of people in the world ( China, India etc ) using wood for cooking , heating.

Definitely a lot of things you can do to improve efficiency even in a grade 2 listed home. Good list of easy, medium and more advanced options in this document including for solid floors and all sorts of wall types

historicengland.org.uk/images-books/publications/eehb-how-to-improve-energy-efficiency/heag094-how-to-improve-energy-efficiency/

It could be worth getting an expert it to review what would work in your home. You may not wish to do it now but you could do bits as you go along - if you are decorating the living room, that's the right time to add insulation and secondary glazing, replace radiators etc.

Every little bit counts.

@Chumleymouse

I don’t think a few wood burning stoves in this country is going to make much difference when there are billions of people in the world ( China, India etc ) using wood for cooking , heating.

Particulates are LOCAL air pollution. They kill and damage you in your home and damage your neighbours and immediate community.

And yes, global carbon is a factor you should consider too.

electric boilers will be the big thing next year as soon as the new SAP comes out. they cost the same as regular boilers and you don't need to change any of your existing plumbing. you'll probably want PV panels to help keep the running costs lower as will cost a bit more than gas but with PV panels and battery storage for which there will likely be another round of grants for , it will be as affordable as now.