Leaving a rental - deposit expectations

[Puzzledtenant]

Hi, we've just moved out of our rented house (to owning one so no issues about next tenancy/reference etc just to be clear) and not sure if landlord is being unreasonable about expectations for deductions from deposit.

We lived there for 8 years, we were expecting this would have some bearing on the expected property state, wear and tear etc, is this right? Landlord seems to be expecting property back in the condition as if we'd only been in 6 months or so.

Landlord wants carpets professionally cleaned when this is not mentioned in tenancy agreement and they are as clean as you'd normally expect, vacuumed etc, but obviously have 8 years of being used.

On 2 walls the wallpaper has damage from where furniture rubbed against it and we weren't aware until we moved and so moved the furniture. Landlord is charging to completely repaper both walls - I agree we should contribute as we're liable to 'repair' them but paying for completely new wallpaper for all of both walls when it's only 2 drops that need replacing seems excessive. Of course we understand landlord will probably want to repaper all the wall to make sure it matches but again, surely we're not responsible for 8 years of fading/ageing of the non-damaged paper so shouldn't be paying for LL to get new paper?

We'll be going through DPS anyway but wanted an idea of what would be fair to pay for/towards or not.

Also to muddy the waters our tenancy agreement refers to agreeing the inventory but unless we've forgotten something we never actually had an inventory given or signed anything so would it be unreasonable to ask the LL to prove what the property condition was when we moved in?

If this is England: landlord can whistle with no signed inventory.

even if one exists, there is a concept of wear and tear. The deposit schemes assume all decoration and carpets are completely worn out long before 8 years (this is why rentals don't have expensive carpets or fittings).

even if there is deliberate damage, the claim is pro rated for age and the amount of the item damaged. Example (not you) - iron burn in middle of carpet. (been there!) Landlord gets value of carpet prorated for age and the amount of area damaged. Resulting deduction - bugger all.

if professional cleaning isn't in the tenancy agreement, also no chance.

just raise a dispute with the scheme if there is a claim. This is why the schemes are there.

They won’t get much, if anything - after 8 years it will he expected that carpets need replacing, and without an inventory they can’t prove the walls weren’t like that when you moved in (and even if they weren’t, it’s unlikely you’d lose much if any money for this). They can try it on but it’s unlikely they’ll get much of anything. Thank goodness for these schemes.

Useful article:
homelet.co.uk/landlord-insurance/landlord-lowdown-blog/article/wear-and-tear-what-is-deemed-acceptable

The landlord will need to prove the condition of the property at the time you moved in, not you. The DPS will rule in your favour, and the LL is being naive if they think otherwise.

Carpet cleaning - if it's not in your contract you don't have to do it. I wouldn't bother, because in my experience if they're still not happy it's another stick to beat you with. When I was a LL, the expectation was that carpets would be replaced after 10 years maximum, so the most you could possibly be charged - if they were absolutely ruined - would be 20% of the cost of new.

Walls - redecoration is expected after 3-5 years, at your LL's expense. So they'll whistle for getting anything after 8 years.

I wouldn't worry if I were you.

Op l am a LL, after 8 years l would expect a clean and empty property handed back, with maybe a few minor repairs needed, ( think , kitchen cupboard door loose, not cupboard smashed up) and to require a redecoration.
If the property is proffessionally cleaned, (yes carpets too), original furniture still there, with minimal damage, no additional stuff left, bins and recycling done to date. Keys present, rent paid.

I would expect to refund the deposit in full and redecorate, top to bottom, but not change carpets.

If the LL didn't adhere to his reaponsibilities, ie have an independent inventory done, he has no leg to stand on.

However it is good practice to do a thorough clean of the place and carpets. Then refuse anything that could reasonable be called fair wear and tear, like minor scuffs, dents, scratches on walls.

oh my god LL should be kissing you for leaving nothing more than walls needing repapering and carpets worn in line with 8 years' use. Unless he can produce the signed inventory and the lease doesn't require delivery up after a professional clean (some do), then he's probably peeing in the wind on the carpet clean too. He'll probably realise how very lucky he was with you as tenants when he gets new ones.

I wouldn't worry about cleaning the carpets. They'll probably get ripped out and replaced anyway. It was in our agreement that we cleaned the carpets, and the landlord insisted we did so even though they'd already told us they were going to replace them.

thorough clean is all very well and good but is not the same as a professional clean which would have to be specified if required.

@MatildaonaWaltzer

thorough clean is all very well and good but is not the same as a professional clean which would have to be specified if required.

It is no longer legal to require a professional clean, regardless of what the tenancy agreement says.

The landlord is likely to get nothing after such a long period renting. Don't worry. Just raise a dispute if he tries to withhold. Why are some landlords such greedy wankers??

Sorry i can't comment helpfully on your situation OP but thank you for posting. I expect to be in a similar position after 4 years 3 months, infuriating considering the substandard accommodation and rodent problem throughout tenancy.
I've considered withholding my last months rent but I expect that would be unwise as I have a contract via an agency?. Good luck !

@orangenasturtium - that's really interesting, and makes perfect sense to me. It's a business cost and therefore the landlord should pay and put it down on their tax return as a deductible expense. Putting the burden of a professional clean on the tenant under a residential lease never seemed fair.

Has the landlord raised a dispute via the deposit protection scheme or have they just mentioned to you that they’ll be charging you for it? If the latter I suggest you log in and request your full deposit back The landlord can dispute if they wish but you can then stand firm and let the scheme decide. They will rule in your favour for the vast majority of it if not all based on what you’ve said.

Put everything through the scheme and don’t let the landlord bully you into agreeing a deduction outside of it.

Thanks for all the replies, we'll let the DPS handle it but it's definitely a PITA how greedy landlords can be, we've put in our DPS reply an amount that's a quarter of what he was asking for tat we're happy to pay, I agree that it sounds like we could probably get away with paying nothing but we think that's fair considering we did the minor damage and we'd feel ok paying that.

Thanks for all the timescales, I thought I was going to get loads of replies saying everything should still be perfect, sounds far more reasonable that he should be replacing the carpets/wall dressing anyway by now - it definitely wasn't even freshly done when we moved in, carpets were definitely there for some time before us.

Hope it helps @52andblue - I wouldn't withold last rent as I think that can be dicey legally but would definitely argue it knowing what others have put above.

@ireallyamthewalrus

Has the landlord raised a dispute via the deposit protection scheme or have they just mentioned to you that they’ll be charging you for it? If the latter I suggest you log in and request your full deposit back The landlord can dispute if they wish but you can then stand firm and let the scheme decide. They will rule in your favour for the vast majority of it if not all based on what you’ve said.

Put everything through the scheme and don’t let the landlord bully you into agreeing a deduction outside of it.

The LL hasn't raised a dispute yet, think he's been hoping to pressure us to accept all the deductions by 'sorting it out between ourselves' - pisses me off a bit as we've been very quiet tenants, always paid rent on time, not pestered him etc and he's trying to take what he can get. I'd partly be happy to be arsey and say we won't offer anything but I think what we've offered is fair, he'll hate it though.

Stand your ground. Any home could reasonably expect to need carpets and paint after 8 years.

@MatildaonaWaltzer

oh my god LL should be kissing you for leaving nothing more than walls needing repapering and carpets worn in line with 8 years' use. Unless he can produce the signed inventory and the lease doesn't require delivery up after a professional clean (some do), then he's probably peeing in the wind on the carpet clean too. He'll probably realise how very lucky he was with you as tenants when he gets new ones.

Definitely agree with this! He owns a house down the street too and it's been re-let at least 4 times while we lived in our house, so multiple weeks of lost rent and letting fees etc and the current occupants seem very clean (the DH is always out cleaning his car so guessing they keep the house clean) but seem a nightmare, they've had the police out at least 3 times in lockdown that I've noticed due to threats to kill each other, once actually sitting in the middle of the road screaming at each other. He'll miss us I think!

Hi OP, just got back my entire deposit via DPS after landlord tried to get £750 for me. Do not agree to anything. Zero. The onus is on the landlord to prove the damage and the original state of the property. No inventory, no proof. You will get 100% of your money back, just fight it.

Brill, thanks, we've agreed to £140 as 'goodwill' (not admitted to anything LL was claiming) where LL wanted £560 - we're happy to pay that as part goodwill and part scuffs that we've done but have we dropped ourselves in it by offering anything now?

I didn't know about the Deposit Protection Scheme?

My rental started in Oct in 2016 in England via an Agency so should be covered?

I too do not have an inventory.

I have a huge crack in a pane of window glass which occurred during the cold winter of 2018. I told the landlord (stupidly not in writing but he lives across the courtyard from me and runs a business from there so I see him multiple times a week and the post wasn't running for weeks at the time and I wanted to let him know asap. Of course, he has not replaced it). Apart from that, there have just been some wall scuffs, otherwise it is almost as we moved in (the carpets are Axminster and at least 30 years old, he said he was happy for us to 'skip them' but they are okay, funnily enough.

If you haven't already sent it off, don't agree to anything. I've always found the DPS to be very fair and reasonable towards the tenants. After 8 years, you're talking maybe a few pence for the wallpaper. He's obviously trying to mitigate his losses from the other property by stealing your money. The law is on your side.

Are you dealing directly with the LL or an agent? As a new LL I was shocked that the agent pushed so hard to find things to use to withhold the deposit where we'd have paid it back without worrying at all.

@Tempusfudgeit

If you haven't already sent it off, don't agree to anything. I've always found the DPS to be very fair and reasonable towards the tenants. After 8 years, you're talking maybe a few pence for the wallpaper. He's obviously trying to mitigate his losses from the other property by stealing your money. The law is on your side.

I've already sent it off unfortunately, am happy with the £140 though even if that's over generous but just hope I haven't dropped myself into him getting more now? The LL is texting direct, think he's actually more grabby than the letting agent surprisingly, the agency just seem to be glad we're out so they can try and get new people in for a higher rent (they've whacked the rent up to a level they're never going to get now ).

I haven't actually agreed to any of his claims though, he's asked for so much over text that it's all over the place so I just put the £140 as a goodwill contribution based on what I thought was fair.